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Old 20-01-2023, 19:35   #16
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Re: The sail control table!

I'm committed to this type of design.

I deleted the forward cockpit.

So what if I just use multiple smaller capstans then? And no sailboat winches.

It seems like there aren't any to take sheets at varying angles.

They make capstans that could do the work. They don't care about the entry angle
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Old 20-01-2023, 20:44   #17
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Re: The sail control table!

Capstans would require manual tailing of lines. If you can manage 2 or 3 winches I'd think you could come up with a layout of clutches and deck organizers that give a suitable line to winch angle that's within spec for everything. It looks like most winches have the angle concern.

How many total lines do you need to get to the winches? And are there groups of lines that see more vs less load (where some could use a smaller winch than others).
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Old 20-01-2023, 22:33   #18
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
in the past, I would just buy a boat and sail it. However it was rigged, I'd just get used to it.

Blank canvases suck to be honest
Perhaps now you know why there are so few home built/designed yachts afloat and sailing.

My observation is that Naval Architects and engineers actually have knowledge that we, as amateurs, lack. That's why they get the big bucks and the corner offices, Chotu!

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Old 20-01-2023, 23:16   #19
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Re: The sail control table!

One additional idea would be to incorporate aluminum backing plates in the deck to further spread the load.

Otherwise, I fully agree that cleated lines under high tension need to be tensioned with the winch before uncleating and indeed the location of entry of the line on the drum needs to match the location of the drive cog.

Having said this though, my X came with the two Geny winches 180 deg out of position and I re-installed them. Before that they were used with no visible problem just that the force on the central bearing would have been double the tension on the line. High wear and tear.

You could use one winch but need to make sure it's positioned correctly for lines used most and under the highest tension. And it may need to be replaced sooner.
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Old 21-01-2023, 00:41   #20
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Re: The sail control table!

I think your in-experience with cats is showing here a little. Firstly the loads are enormous, cats can't spill wind by leaning over. You should get out more and go sail on a few friends cats or just pole around the marinas. The main difference you have is that many production cats do not control exclusively from the cockpit relaying on mast mounted clutches and winches that simplify the runs.



My boat is smaller than yours and uses 4 winches and numerous clutches. The halyard winch that is electric 48, handles halyards (4, only 1 live), reefing lines (6), furling lines (2), topping lift, out haul, down haul and Cunningham. There are 2 sheet winches 54's without clutches, my jib is only 43sqm. I also have a 54 that handles the main sheet, traveller (2) and dagger board lines (3) and utilises 6 clutches.


Regardless of the angle that the line approaches the winch from any clutches MUST point directly to the winch, tangential to the entry point on the drum. The way you have them shown would result in sideways force on the clutch something they are not designed for and massive friction and chafe of the lines where they exit the clutch when under tension from the winch.



Optimising the runs to minimise any turning blocks (extra friction) and staggering the clutch positions that are serviced by one or even two winches is a major challenge.
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Old 21-01-2023, 01:16   #21
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Re: The sail control table!

Wondering if it's just me or if there are others who don't 'get' the perspective of those two photos. In any case the photos to me don't really clarify how it will all work eventually, or what the options are.
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Old 21-01-2023, 06:38   #22
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Tupaia View Post
I think your in-experience with cats is showing here a little. Firstly the loads are enormous, cats can't spill wind by leaning over. You should get out more and go sail on a few friends cats or just pole around the marinas. The main difference you have is that many production cats do not control exclusively from the cockpit relaying on mast mounted clutches and winches that simplify the runs.



My boat is smaller than yours and uses 4 winches and numerous clutches. The halyard winch that is electric 48, handles halyards (4, only 1 live), reefing lines (6), furling lines (2), topping lift, out haul, down haul and Cunningham. There are 2 sheet winches 54's without clutches, my jib is only 43sqm. I also have a 54 that handles the main sheet, traveller (2) and dagger board lines (3) and utilises 6 clutches.


Regardless of the angle that the line approaches the winch from any clutches MUST point directly to the winch, tangential to the entry point on the drum. The way you have them shown would result in sideways force on the clutch something they are not designed for and massive friction and chafe of the lines where they exit the clutch when under tension from the winch.



Optimising the runs to minimise any turning blocks (extra friction) and staggering the clutch positions that are serviced by one or even two winches is a major challenge.


You think?? Lolol.

My inexperience with these size cats is front and center at the point of rigging it.

I was financially excluded from these dream cats all my sailing life. Now after having put in the time, I have one and yes, I don't know how to properly rig it. I was hoping my riggers would do all this. But I don't know

I've sailed monos of all sizes, a hobie cat and a 10 meter catamaran with a rig that should have probably been on a 20ft catamaran. Ha ha ha.

Leaving all halyards but the main halyard on the mast makes some good sense. They aren't used anyway. That greatly reduces the complexity of the situation. Good thinking.

There are already winches that came off the mast for this purpose.

So then I'll have:

Main halyard
Mainsheet
Jib sheets
Traveler
Spinnaker sheets/guys (and future screecher)
Board lowering lines
Jib furling line
Main Reefing lines

Not as bad
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Old 21-01-2023, 06:42   #23
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Perhaps now you know why there are so few home built/designed yachts afloat and sailing.

My observation is that Naval Architects and engineers actually have knowledge that we, as amateurs, lack. That's why they get the big bucks and the corner offices, Chotu!

Jim
Well, that's why I moved the boat and rig 200 miles away to the rigger's.

What's your point, exactly, other than to try to me feel bad?
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Old 21-01-2023, 06:46   #24
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Re: The sail control table!

Keeping some halyards on the mast definitely will help your routing and winch alignment, as there are less lines to deal with.



With that accounted for, do you have a good idea of how many lines you're trying to get to the winches?
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Old 21-01-2023, 06:57   #25
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Capstans would require manual tailing of lines. If you can manage 2 or 3 winches I'd think you could come up with a layout of clutches and deck organizers that give a suitable line to winch angle that's within spec for everything. It looks like most winches have the angle concern.

How many total lines do you need to get to the winches? And are there groups of lines that see more vs less load (where some could use a smaller winch than others).
Yeah. Most all winches have the angle concern. I haven’t found any that don’t yet. Except simple capstans. But yeah. You’d have to tail those.

Maybe 15 lines if I've counted correctly?

Because the mast is right there at the far side of the sail control table, it naturally breaks the lines into 2 groups. A port and starboard group. Jist like I placed the clutches for the layout pic. I suppose there also could be a centerline group for anything that is coming straight down off of the mast or boom. That would be reefing lines, mainsheet and main halyard. I guess it's not even strictly necessary to bring the main halyard in, but seems like it would be nice.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:00   #26
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Re: The sail control table!

As far as grouping lower load lines...

The dagger board lines that push them down will have almost no effort at all. They will be like shoestrings essentially.

The jib is pretty small. It’s just a blade jib. Fits in the fore triangle.

The main sheet will be a beast although I hope to have good mechanical advantage on that.

The spinnaker lines will have a pretty good pull.

The someday screecher lines will also.

i’m hoping reefing lines are almost as easy as the dagger board control lines. I know they won’t be. But I hope they’re not that difficult.

The traveler lines shouldn’t be too hard either. If the traveler is working properly.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:04   #27
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by HeinSdL View Post
Wondering if it's just me or if there are others who don't 'get' the perspective of those two photos. In any case the photos to me don't really clarify how it will all work eventually, or what the options are.

Ask some questions. Iím happy to answer them in the thread. No problem.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:06   #28
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Re: The sail control table!

Could you possibly make the table rectangular instead of tapering the front part in? That should give enough room to fit 3 winches. And if you can group the lower load lines, 1 of the winches can be smaller than the other 2 to save space.

5 lines to a winch should be manageable angle-wise. I routinely see 4 rope clutches and corresponding lines in front of a single winch on production boats. So I expect 5 will also work acceptably, provided the clutches are far enough ahead of the winch to keep the angles small.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:08   #29
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by HeinSdL View Post
One additional idea would be to incorporate aluminum backing plates in the deck to further spread the load.

Otherwise, I fully agree that cleated lines under high tension need to be tensioned with the winch before uncleating and indeed the location of entry of the line on the drum needs to match the location of the drive cog.

Having said this though, my X came with the two Geny winches 180 deg out of position and I re-installed them. Before that they were used with no visible problem just that the force on the central bearing would have been double the tension on the line. High wear and tear.

You could use one winch but need to make sure it's positioned correctly for lines used most and under the highest tension. And it may need to be replaced sooner.

If it is truly the case that I could use one winch andjust replace it more often I would be very happy with that option.

it would simplify a lot.

I have seen plenty of installations where the winch is off-center from the rope clutches because the rope clutches are in an array. So just by definition they canít be lined up perfectly.

Hopefully the Rigger will have enough knowledge in this area to steer me right.

for now I have to make the table. But I donít want to make the table and have it be wrong. Thatís the reason Iím trying to look forward to just how many winches there are.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:09   #30
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Re: The sail control table!

I think trying to wrangle a furling line and sheet for the same sail at the same time would be a PITA with only one winch.

That said, my clutches do allow me to slowly let out a line.
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