Tensioning a staysail stay

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by GILow

Jim's experience on the East Coast of Oz is one of the reasons I'd like to get rid of the highfield. He did enough damage with his, which sounds like it was half the weight of the monster DIY thing on my boat.

Yep, ya doona want to replicate my errors! In our case, the lever was permanently hitched to the deck and the release was at the join between lever and furler... thus when it came undone, the lever wasn't flailing about, just the sail, furler foil, stay and furler drum. That was plenty! And the reason it came undone was that the restraining band (webbing + velcro) had fallen off, allowing the lever to be dislodged by a slack sheet. It had happened once before and I failed to realize that it was now flawed... had worked well for a few years. Had I replaced it after the first time it fell, I'd not have had the problem... 20-20 hindsight!

The disadvantage of t hat system was a very high tack point for the sail, but it worked ok. It was possible to move it back to the shrouds, and tension it a bit there, but it was still a bit slack and moved around a lot under way. It was enough of a task that I seldom did it!

Nowadays when faced with any short tacking course we simply use the solent instead of the genoa. Leaves us a bit underpowered in <18 kts or so, but we have learned to live with it (unless there is another boat going the same way).

BTW, I was quite impressed with the luff tension generated in the flying furler system I described earlier (on Aurielle). In fact, his whole rig (masthead, in-line spreaders, not terribly tall) was a lot more rigid than ours.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Let me add, yes, Aurielle will be around, if their plans stay the same. I have to say I was impressed with the owners strategy for sailing after 70: He invested in light air sails, and usually only goes out on forecasts of less than 15. Means lots of assymetricalling, and Code 0 ing, buy hey! lovely conditions! (yes, it is an Adams 15, so lighter than Manera, narrow and easily driven).

The problem we had, as Jim says, was totally our fault. We failed to understand the significance of seeing the webbing on the deck. Had we not sawn off the handle of the hyfield lever in order to be able to lower the furler drum, and used a webbing retainer that stretched, and aged, there would have been no problem. Had we replaced it the day it fell on the deck, there would have been no problem. Had we chosen to replace it every year, mostly likely no prob, either. I think your present staysail setup is a good one, that makes short tacking possible when needs be. You will hank the staysail on for passages in the Southern Ocean, and possibly use the two headsails together for much of your travels. But it is really nice to be able to tack the genoa, REALLY NICE. Capiche?

Ann

[Snowpetrel]

Some photo's of what you have would be nice. If the highfeild releasing is a concern prehaps a safety strop might work.

http://joecoopersailing.com/short-ha...e-solent-stay/ some good tensioning systems here.

I'll second Ann's comment about it being very very nice in light airs not to have to manhandle a headsail around a staysail stay.

[Paul L]

Not sure your cruising plans or boat or style, so take this for what you paid for it.
If you are gonna put a furler on the staysail then plan on just leaving it in place. We have a solent setup that used to have a removable solent stay. The jib was almost brand new as the previous owners never used it or the stay. I put it on a permenant furler. For our cruising I'd guess we use the smaller solent jib 80%+ of the time. Anytime we are tacking consistently then it is always with the jib. Too much work to tack the genoa and our boat sails very well with the main and solent.
One of the downsides to brining the stay back is the natural temptation on a mom and pop cruising boat to see the wind pick up a bit and put some furl in the genoa. Then see it pick up more and stick a little more reef into the headsail. Now things get a bit ugly and you have a dancing act on the foredeck with a heavy sail/stay/furler trying to wrestle it to the fitting and tighten.
For typical short handed cruising fatigue is the enemy.

[JPA Cate]

What you have written, Paul, is why I wrote that he should leave it as is: releasable for those days when you need the genoa, and hanked on, ready to go, for passages. On deck sailbags are nice for that, but for limited exposure, not a necessity.

Ann

[40 South]

I've put a double Wichard padeye on my foredeck (with appropriate under-deck reinforcement) just aft of the anchor winch for a staysail.

I intend to fly a staysail on a continuous line furler with a 6mm double dyneema halyard. I will also be making a 7mm Dux inner forestay so that I can hank on a storm sail or another staysail if I choose. I will be fitting 7mm Dux running backs with 2:1 6mm dyneema tails (with cover at the end) with low friction rings, through a jammer, to a winch. I have a Dux B&R rig with backstay & swept spreaders. The inner forestay goes to the upper spreaders and will be tensioned with 4:1 6mm dyneema and low friction rings. I can route the inner forestay 4:1 dyneema to a mast or cockpit winch if more tension is required.

The furler also gets used for the Code 0 on a bow sprit.

[-bliss-]

Lots of good advice from very qualified cruisers here! Don’t want to contradict all the valid points being stated, just sharing my opinion from the perspective of a safety concerned single handler.
My reason for still planning to convert my current hank on- cutter to a furling cutter, is primarily to eliminate the risk of injury. The flogging clew and sheets can do some serious harm while you´re wrestling the beast on the foredeck, while dousing the sail. I´m simply done with that. At the moment I´ve rigged a downhaul from the top to a block next to the tack. After releasing the halyard I can pull the sail down using this downhaul on a winch while still controlling the sheet to a certain degree. If the wind is strong (which it is most of the time when using this sail), it´s still heavy work, but works a lot better than risking bruises on the foredeck. After the battle, I still have to secure the sail to deck, possibly covering it and so on. A lot more work than simply furling it (which takes a few seconds), just to enjoy a clean foredeck while setting the anchor. Bottom line, I think all the manhandling is too much work. The sail is way too big to be packed and stowed under deck while not in use, so the foredeck will most likely be cluttered at all times, and safely secured, it´s not available in a second if conditions ask for it. I really don’t like sailing with a partly furled baggy genoa or jib on the forestay, so I want the cutter to be available for unfurling the second I think of it.

My personal view is based on my fascination for simplicity, reliability and preferably aesthetically pleasing solutions.
After coiling all the lines, I like being lazy in cockpit, not having to wrestle big sails during the lovely first hour in the anchorage. Listening to ducks passing by is more charming than swearing and bleeding on deck.

Sure, I will miss shorttacking the foresail, but I´m in no hurry, so the cutter will do. For me, sailing inshore is for getting to the anchorage safely, or exploring locations with a stunning scenery, so in these conditions, who cares about speed, right. When it comes to short handed boat handling, everything is a compromise it seems..
-kjetil-

[GILow]

Great points here, lots to read.

As it is, things have become more complicated in a nice way. I have just been very generously gifted a furler setup that I should be able to adapt for the staysail. It is an older design, similar to the one I already have on the yankee, and it looks simple and robust. It has yet to be removed from the current boat, and that may prove challenging, but I am optimistic at this point, and very touched by the generosity.

To clarify the current setup, I ONLY sail with the yankee and staysail now. The boat behaviour is simply so much better that the only reason I keep the reacher in the sail locker is for emergencies.

So this does lend weight to having the staysail on a furler.

I think some kind of simple release mechanism for those times that I am at anchor and wish to string out the hammock is still well worth considering. I am embarrassed to admit that, until -bliss- pointed it out, I hadn't considered the torque issue of the furler.

Snowpetrel has calmed me down about bending the mast, so I'll take the ideas here and see how they can be applied once I have the furler.

I was planning on taking a photo of the current highfield setup, I'll try to do so tomorrow and share the pics. They truly are massive.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

... thus when it came undone, the lever wasn't flailing about, just the sail, furler foil, stay and furler drum.

Point noted, this is a concern. Aside from the 20/20 hindsight, I wonder if some kind of backup restraining cable might be a worthwhile addition.

Just thinking aloud.

Sounds like I'll get a chance to see the Adams 15 setup in January with luck, and there's no chance of making any changes to the staysail setup before the Tassie trip, so there will be an opportunity to adopt any ideas that help.

[Suijin]

I’m confused why you want to ditch the highfield lever as it’s a pretty robust, compact, and easily rigged/unrigged solution. Mine has a snap shackle on the bottom and toggle and clevis pin at the top. Very easy to put in and take out and the stay itself stows back to a shroud.

And yes, if you have a cutter rig you probably want to avoid a big genoa. Difficult to handle, won’t point depending on your rig geometry and only an advantage in very light air in my experience.

[FlightPlan]

My cutter rig was built with hydraulic roller furling jib and main, and a Highfield lever staysail. I was annoyed that the stay when brought back to the mast was too long, and meant to be attached to an eye strap on the deck which still left slack in the stay flopping around. my remedy was to bungy the stay to the base of the mast. My point was to sail her as a sloop and use larger jibs. (racing mentality) i finally decided to replace the baby stay with a Harken electric roller furler fixed to the deck. It has a head foil. Then I commissioned North Sails to make a genoa and staysail that would work together. It wound up being a 122% genoa and a complimentary staysail. I love the set up, no fore deck work when sailing short handed. The boat balances out to weather surprisingly well, and I can get to 9.2 knts relative hull speed in 18 knts of wind. Showed me that big is not always better in jib size, and the main to jib overlap is enough to drive the boat well. Designed cutters usually have the mast farther forward than your everyday sloop. BTW, my downwind sailing employs a spinnaker.

[Wallaby]

A homemade solution to the inner forestay for staysail tensioning problem, no highfields, no pulleys.


See the attached photo (hopefully).



This is a removable forestay to provide sail flexibility for a sloop-rigged 50ft boat. It carries a high aspect jib (for when conditions warrant the genoa furled) and storm jib, when needed.



I modified a standard turnbuckle. There are two 'levers', a short one near the top of the turnbuckle for keeping the forestay from twisting during tightening. The second lever is in the middle of the turnbuckle for tightening. This lever swivels to accomodate windlass height. At the bottom of the turnbuckle is a triangular plate (actually two plates with a spacer). It connects (with a removable pin) to a plate bolted to the dividing bulkhed in the anchor locker. You will also see a white-plastic-coated wire which connects to the jib tack. It also prevents the
middle lever from turning.

[Boston Blackie]

Last winter I upgraded our headsail furler one size and repurposed the original furler to the staysail as seen in the attachments. Garhauer made up a custom fork tang to fit the 1/2" clevis of our chain plate to the 5/8" clevis of the furler. The SS bar weldment provides great torsional stiffness for reefing and furling.

I added a padeye on the coachroof for a new adjustable staysail lead to position the staysail midslot inside our 115% yankee when closehauled. We find adding the staysail when closehauled gives us 1/2 knot more speed at 35-40% AWA.

The double head rig is simple to tack with our new single jib sheet. The sheet is clove hitched through a soft shackle so it slides effortlessly around the furled or flying staysail. We tack the yankee leaving the stay sail cleated which backs and blows the clew of the yankee around, trim the yankee, then free the staysail and trim it. The stay sail sheets on the coach roof have dedicated clutches which are left open when sailing except when the halliard winches are needed for reefing or unreefing the main.

In gnarly stay sail only conditions it is a joy to be able to trim and tack it from under the dodger

We sailed the new rig 3000 nm around Newfoundland last summer and it performed flawlessly. Jibing when sailing wing and wing is slightly slower as the pole has to be raised vertically up the mast and the foreguy reattached to clear the staysail furler line. I tack the foreguy down to the old stay sail tack padeye just behind the furler so do not have to go forward of the stay sail stay.

We also had a luff tape put on our much smaller storm stay sail as a backup.

Great improvement for our age appropriate blue water sailing!!!

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by GILow

Well, if you are not worried about the tension remaining on the mast without the runners, then I'll relax.

Starting to dream up something a little LIKE a highfield, but one that remains attached to the deck. Jim's highfield got loose one day (if I remember correctly) and did a lot of damage.

Something fixed to the deck feels safer to me. And I am pretty sure I can design something to take the torque of a furler, should I be able to go that way.

I use a highfield lever, standard configuration, and I have no problem, yet, with securing the big heavy thing to the lifeline stanchion near the mast, but your comment got me thinking. If you designed a highfield lever with a horizontal handle, it could remain attached to the deck at all times - the lower end of the stay would be attached to this deck-mounted lever with a pin just as the lower end of a standard highfield is attached to deck now. All that would be loose would be the sail itself and the wire stay with its toggle.

With this horizontal arrangement, when the handle is temporarily raised, it would provide slack with a cam same as normal highfield, then the handle is pushed down flat to the deck and that rotation tensions the stay. Need to have a very secure way to hold it down in that position of course.

When not in use, it simply would lie flat on the deck - of course your deck layout would have to have room for this. But I don't think there's any reason the horizontal lever could not be running athwartships rather than fore and aft - most decks would have room for it that way. Unfortunately it would be some extra item to trip on or foul a jib sheet but there are ways to avoid such dangers.

This is of course a bit off topic of the OP. Don't think I would ever go for a detachable arrangement with a clumsy jib furling gear attached.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I use a highfield lever, standard configuration, and I have no problem, yet, with securing the big heavy thing to the lifeline stanchion near the mast, but your comment got me thinking. If you designed a highfield lever with a horizontal handle, it could remain attached to the deck at all times - the lower end of the stay would be attached to this deck-mounted lever with a pin just as the lower end of a standard highfield is attached to deck now. All that would be loose would be the sail itself and the wire stay with its toggle.

With this horizontal arrangement, when the handle is temporarily raised, it would provide slack with a cam same as normal highfield, then the handle is pushed down flat to the deck and that rotation tensions the stay. Need to have a very secure way to hold it down in that position of course.

When not in use, it simply would lie flat on the deck - of course your deck layout would have to have room for this. But I don't think there's any reason the horizontal lever could not be running athwartships rather than fore and aft - most decks would have room for it that way. Unfortunately it would be some extra item to trip on or foul a jib sheet but there are ways to avoid such dangers.

This is of course a bit off topic of the OP. Don't think I would ever go for a detachable arrangement with a clumsy jib furling gear attached.

A lot of the original 'highfeild' levers were horizontal ones like you describe, sometimes even recessed into the deck. A very neat setup that is now very rarely seen.