Talk me out of roller furling

[thomm225]

Looks like sailors in the Golden Globe 2022 are choosing different options as well.

Some with furlers and hank-on head sails others with only furlers

Jeremy Bagshaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcU-I3gS5X0

Simon Curwen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyJWiIj8EJg

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Benz

I disagree, but this does illustrate the way language is shifting. I wish when a new thing was invented they would give it a new name, instead of calling everything with two headsails a "cutter," even though that originally had a very specific definition.

If the stay'sl is not set on the forestay, it isn't a stay'sl. The forestay is the principal stay holding up the mast. The stay going from bowsprit end to masthead is the jibstay, on which the jib is flown. Without this arrangement, the boat cannot be considered a cutter. Another name should be found, since as we've seen confusion is bred by looseness in terms.

It is certainly a question of semantics. But I think I disagree with your views.

Take for instance the Hunter 37. That boat has two jibs that are flown at the same time. One comes down right at the stem head, one comes down in the middle of the foredeck. I would call that a cutter. It is certainly not a solent rig, and with two headsails "sloop" is insufficient. It does not have a bowsprit. MY TAKE: CUTTER

Or take the Mariner 40 ketch I grew up on. Big old bowsprit, about 4 or 5 ft long. One jib from the tip of the bowsprit to the top of the mast. No inside stays, no inside jibs. But it is at the tip of the bow sprit. Is that a jib stay, or a forestay, or a headstay? MY TAKE: KETCH

Many Catalina 30's have a short bow sprit. The forestay goes from the masthead to the tip of the bow sprit. I would call that stay a forestay, not a jib stay. MY TAKE: SLOOP.

And then there is the big Tartan I saw recently, no bowsprit, two stays close together at the stem fitting. You only fly one at a time, depending on conditions. MY TAKE: SOLENT SLOOP

My current boat, a Saga 43. A stubby bowsprit, only about 2 to 3 ft. A masthead stay that goes down to the tip of the bowsprit. I would call that a headstay, not a jibstay. And then a second stay that starts about a foot from the top of the mast and goes to the stem head. We call that the Solent stay. The sails are called the reacher or genoa, and the jib or stays'l. MY TAKE: SOLENT SLOOP.

My point is that the difference between a solent rig and a cutter rig has little or nothing to do with the bow sprit. It has to do with the distance between the two stays, and whether or not the sails are flown one at a time or in pairs. I don't think it's an issue of terms evolving, or new configurations.

[MicHughV]

I think the discussion of sailboat rigs is best held at a bar...where one can scribble on a napkin whilst imbibing....

Napkin sketches after the third round of drinks will be judged by a jury of no less than 12 sailors as to accuracy and intent of the drawee.

All 12 sailors must agree on what a particular napkin rig presented is called, no exceptions allowed. If a consensus cannot be reached, the drawee shall be obliged to buy the next round of drinks.

The jury shall not be allowed to leave the bar until a unanimous verdict has been reached.

If by closing time, no unanimous verdict has been rendered, the barman shall have the final say.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I think the discussion of sailboat rigs is best held at a bar...where one can scribble on a napkin whilst imbibing....

Napkin sketches after the third round of drinks will be judged by a jury of no less than 12 sailors as to accuracy and intent of the drawee.

All 12 sailors must agree on what a particular napkin rig presented is called, no exceptions allowed. If a consensus cannot be reached, the drawee shall be obliged to buy the next round of drinks.

The jury shall not be allowed to leave the bar until a unanimous verdict has been reached.

If by closing time, no unanimous verdict has been rendered, the barman shall have the final say.

We can't even get two sober sailors to agree! At the end of the day, semantics only matters to those who care: in my case, it matters because when rigging a boat, every different line and lead has to be identifiable and recognizable: however many headsails a fancy catamaran has, each one's halyards and sheets have to be described so they can be built, and distinguished from the others' so you know you've made the whole rigging package.
For newer racing boats with previously unheard-of control lines, we get to make up the name. So far the best has been the "up-down double diablo deflector." But it perfectly describes a unique line with a singular purpose that is not any other of the lines on the boat.

[MicHughV]

My first girlfriend that went sailing with me, called lines by their color...
"Do you want me to pull the one with the green flecks in it or the one with the red stripes?.....worked for me.....

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Benz

If the stay'sl is not set on the forestay, it isn't a stay'sl. The forestay is the principal stay holding up the mast. The stay going from bowsprit end to masthead is the jibstay, on which the jib is flown.

Quite correct, on, (for example,) the Westsail 32 rig, the "Jibstay" carries the jib, and the "Forestay" carries the "Forestaysail", (we just shorten the name to staysail,) as there is only one.
Your term of the forestay as the principle stay holding up the mast comes from the days before "masthead" rigs were developed.
That in turn, comes from when there was a "mast" and a "top mast".
The mast was supported by the Forestay, the "Top mast" supported by the Jibstay.
This all dating to gaff rigs, when top masts and jibs were considered as additional light-air sails.
Our modern sloops, having a wire from the stem to the masthead have a "Headstay", going from the Stemhead to the Masthead.
And yes, a "Cutter" is a specific design feature, it has to do with the masts position as a proportion of the LWL, not simply as having more than one headsail.
Sailors show their naiveté when using the term "inner forestay" unless their boat carries more than one staysail.

[Ryban]

Originally Posted by hpeer

OP,

Just in case you missed my earlier post, a ReefRite furler works like a regular (really good) furler.

But it also allows you to deop the sail just as a hanked on.

https://reefrite.co.nz/

Yup! I understood, and reached out to them last week for a quote on a unit. I really like the idea of being able to re-purpose my existing sails without having to install a UV strip, and keeping the flexibility of being able to easily switch sails without the hassle of pulling a sail out of a furling track.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

….

Sailors show their naiveté when using the term "inner forestay" unless their boat carries more than one staysail.

Using the term “inner forestay” does not show naiveté, it shows lack of historical knowledge.

In the current day where most sailors do not know the historical distinctions between headstay and jibstay and forestay using “inner forestay” is specific enough and descriptive enough that most sailors listening would know what was meant.

Using the term you can be both precise and understandable without resorting to historical terms no longer in wide use or no longer distinguished from each other in normal use.

[Don C L]

For the sake of discussion, if the OP is still around, even though I said I'd go with a furler for the jib, I will say that I have the jib halyard (which I raise on the headstay) run back to the cockpit so dousing the jib is pretty easy and fast, maybe faster and easier than furling a jib in high winds. The downside is I have to go forward to roll it up and tie it off and maybe get it out of the water. I have one reef in my jib too, but that I have to rig up on the foredeck. My little narrow boat can roll quite a bit when I am in the process so that is not much fun, but I don't have any concern for the thing getting jammed. Just another option.

I did see someone coming in yesterday, it was pretty blustery and they had to turn away from the harbor entrance because they were having trouble furling their genoa. They eventually got it sorted out though, about a half mile downwind, but it does remind one to be sure the furler is really bomb proof.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Don C L

The downside is I have to go forward to roll it up and tie it off and maybe get it out of the water.

Don, there is a pretty simple way to deal with that, a trick that I learned from Lin and Larry.
Find the point where a line drawn 90 degrees to the luff intersects the clew.
Some inches above and below that point you put in grommets, (the larger the sail the further apart the grommets).
A light line, (1/4>5/16ths,) is then secured at the head, the line coming down the luff to the upper grommet where it turns and goes out thru the clew, thence back to the lower grommet and down to a deck block/fairlead, where it can turn and go aft to a convenient spot.
When you cast off the halyard you haul-in on the downhaul, it not only brings the sail down but it pulls the sail into a "ball", so to speak.
No flapping around, no going in the water, all is secure.
They described/pictured it in one of their books, (IIRC).

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Don, there is a pretty simple way to deal with that, a trick that I learned from Lin and Larry.
Find the point where a line drawn 90 degrees to the luff intersects the clew.
Some inches above and below that point you put in grommets, (the larger the sail the further apart the grommets).
A light line, (1/4>5/16ths,) is then secured at the head, the line coming down the luff to the upper grommet where it turns and goes out thru the clew, thence back to the lower grommet and down to a deck block/fairlead, where it can turn and go aft to a convenient spot.
When you cast off the halyard you haul-in on the downhaul, it not only brings the sail down but it pulls the sail into a "ball", so to speak.
No flapping around, no going in the water, all is secure.
They described/pictured it in one of their books, (IIRC).

Interesting, I like it, I'll have to play with the downhaul. I have a reef point in the jib and I need to release the tack for a penant I have there too, but this may a good idea to stabilize the whole wad before I put in the reef. Or if I am not reefing that sounds good for just collecting it on the bow... and then I can see how it will all release when raising the jib too... It is extremely rare I have to reef the jib, and even then it is only needed for a short time... hmmm another project! Thanks!

[Bowdrie]

Don, yeah, I understand that it's not a "one-size-fits-all" approach.
With a low-cut Genny it probably wouldn't work so well, but with a higher cut "Yankee" type of sail it works pretty good.
As my headsails have their halyards at the mast that extra line has a short and easy run, and my jib doesn't have reef points.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by PippaB

If you sail the Westsail the way we sail our cutter then I would suggest splitting the difference. Make the jib a roller and leave the hanks on the staysail.

For us the staysail is the de facto gale sail. When the winds pick up we furl the jib, reef the main, and bring the center of effort low and centered with the reefed main and staysail. The staysail is almost bullet proof, but when s*#! really hits the fan having the hank on staysail makes it much easier to switch to a storm jib. Much easier, to me, than any of the options that go over a roller furling sail. They all require a trip forward in conditions where you really don't want to make one, but at least it is only to the inner stay and not all the way out to the pointy end.

All that gets thrown out if you think you would ever use the furler to reef the staysail, but we have never really found that to be the need.

I’ve seen many boats rigged as you describe and it makes sense. I have also seen fully reefable headsails (up to 3 forward) which makes it easy to setup the configuration forward you want.

[Teremoana]

I agree with Ben. When roller furling fails offshore it's usually when it's blowing like stink, and they usually fail in a way that you can't get them furled, or so that they come unfurled. If you're lucky all that happens is that you end up having the sail blown to shreds. My advice is to stick with hanked sails, and get the jib down early enough when the wind rises so you're doing it while it's still easy.

[A CheeseHead]

I spent loads of time (mostly getting wet) developing a level of skill with hanked-on foresails that enabled me to change sails with maybe 30 seconds or so bald-headed (new sail hanked on below the working sail, un-hank the working sail as it comes down while trapping in under my legs, swap halyard to new, have it hoisted.

Then they invented slotted foils and that skill became obsolescent. Then I went cruising, and both foresails rolled up (on ultra-reliable Harken furlers). The hard-earned skill level became historical.

Never turned back, despite sailing in weather ranging from drifting to 70 kts.