Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

[Sos]

If you are flying the shute from the mast head, do you have a topping lift to the boom?


If so, then that and the mainsheet are working together like a backstay.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I think since you are likely to fly the spinnaker downwind, which reduces apparent wind, and usually in lighter conditions, if your mast can’t handle the chute it can’t handle usual sporty conditions with your white sails.
But, if you’re planning to sail hot angles in 25 knots with the chute up and flying a hull, that’s another thing

Probably not much of the latter. I am a cruiser. Just looking to get places a little quicker. Not looking to endanger the boat. I don’t feel that single handing and flying a hull is a good combination. Unless you like swimming. Ha ha ha.

So yes. It’s for downwind work.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Sos

If you are flying the shute from the mast head, do you have a topping lift to the boom?


If so, then that and the mainsheet are working together like a backstay.

Yes. I actually am getting a substantial topping lift put on. So that I can use the boom to lift my motorcycle on and off the boat. (Just in case i want to do that) The topping lift can dead lift 400 pounds.

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by Chotu

First step is symmetrical or asymmetrical?

On a 50 foot catamaran, I would say neither. On a 25-40 foot boat, both. The symmetrical is great for DDW and broad reaches. The asymmetrical is great for beam reaches. I have 2 asymmetricals and one symmetrical on mine.

The problem is a spinnaker is a large billowing sail which doubles the normal, working sail area of your boat. In addition, there is always the prospect of some control and rigging problems. Properly rigged and handled, a spinnaker creates an exciting and challenging sail when you might otherwise have to motor. Jibes in heavy air are particularly exciting and fraught with danger.

On your size boat, however, there is a greater potential for disaster, unless you have a number of experienced crew onboard. Rare are the occasions when you can actually use your spinnaker, unless you race regularly. For your 50 footer, it is not likely worth the additional cost and risks, given the improbability of any regular use.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

On a 50 foot catamaran, I would say neither. On a 25-40 foot boat, both. The symmetrical is great for DDW and broad reaches. The asymmetrical is great for beam reaches. I have 2 asymmetricals and one symmetrical on mine.

The problem is a spinnaker is a large billowing sail which doubles the normal, working sail area of your boat. In addition, there is always the prospect of some control and rigging problems. Properly rigged and handled, a spinnaker creates an exciting and challenging sail when you might otherwise have to motor. Jibes in heavy air are particularly exciting and fraught with danger.

On your size boat, however, there is a greater potential for disaster, unless you have a number of experienced crew onboard. Rare are the occasions when you can actually use your spinnaker, unless you race regularly. For your 50 footer, it is not likely worth the additional cost and risks, given the improbability of any regular use.

This, I don’t really seem to agree with, other than the “both” part. I used my old spinnaker all the time. I flew it single-handed in the ICW and had one of the best sailing days of my life.

I plan my passages for when the winds are nice. That’s why I want a spinnaker. So that I can just sit back and relax and enjoy the magic carpet ride. Typically I am going downwind because that’s when I leave. I wait for it to be good. (Downwind and pleasant sea state)

So without a spinnaker I am stuck motoring downwind. I don’t want to do that. That’s not why I built this boat.

I need downwind sailing capability.

[Chotu]

These are some terrible quality pictures because they are trying to take a picture from a video on a very old computer.

But it looks like I was flying an asymmetrical from the masthead with an ATN sock the whole time. On the old catamaran. I don’t even remember it was so long ago.

Looking at the dimensions of this picture versus the one fxykty posted, that’s why I’m wondering why his seems to look smaller. Maybe it’s flown further away?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

A picture is worth 1000 words on the set up of the rigging. Very nice. Thank you. I can definitely see the flexibility in “gybing” the symmetrical. Is it my imagination or does it look kind of small? Maybe it’s just distant.

That’s pretty cool that you’re at 95° AWA

I just saw an old video of the spinnaker that I used to fly. It was an asymmetric. So long ago I forgot. I’m going to put up a picture of that. I just have to open up an old computer to get it.

Question about that masthead attachment. I’m all for making more sell area like that. Is that not an issue? I remember in a rigging thread I had going people were concerned that my Mast is going to fall down. (What else is new ?) because I have a standard fractional rig that has a forestay, two cap shrouds and two lower shrouds. So they figured it was going to collapse forward without some additional rope stays that go aft like running backstays. I see you don’t have those and your spinnaker is attached at the masthead. It’s all good that way?

The spinnaker is not huge, but big enough that as soon as it supports its own weight (around 4 knots AWS) it can move the boat well - just parallax error I guess.

Good enough.

We only set it from the masthead halyard in <15 knots TWS; anything more than that and we shift it to the gennaker halyard (which we did a few hours later as the sea breeze built). At least until we mount running backstays at the masthead (through bolt and a pair of Cheeky Tangs, then down to the same tackle as the existing running backstays). Between the jumper stays and topping lift the top of the mast is reasonably supported. Plus the mast section doesn’t taper. But we can see it move during gusts.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

On a 50 foot catamaran, I would say neither. On a 25-40 foot boat, both. The symmetrical is great for DDW and broad reaches. The asymmetrical is great for beam reaches. I have 2 asymmetricals and one symmetrical on mine.



The problem is a spinnaker is a large billowing sail which doubles the normal, working sail area of your boat. In addition, there is always the prospect of some control and rigging problems. Properly rigged and handled, a spinnaker creates an exciting and challenging sail when you might otherwise have to motor. Jibes in heavy air are particularly exciting and fraught with danger.



On your size boat, however, there is a greater potential for disaster, unless you have a number of experienced crew onboard. Rare are the occasions when you can actually use your spinnaker, unless you race regularly. For your 50 footer, it is not likely worth the additional cost and risks, given the improbability of any regular use.

Chotu has a catamaran, you are writing from your monohull experience. Not applicable.

In reasonable conditions (up to about 20 knots TWS) there is no excitement nor danger - it’s called a “magic carpet ride” for a reason. The cat is moving at 50-60% of TWS, AWS is minimal, the cat is level, steering as if on rails, and the ride is smooth. Gybes consist of turning the boat, easing one guy and tightening the other, then setting the sheet for best trim. Easy, peasy.

For any downwind or broad reaching passage a spinnaker is an easy way to make easy miles. As a cruiser it’s easy to wait for those conditions.

[Happ]

I would suggest the following. Go with an Asymmetric on Harken Reflex Furler. You hoist the sail furled. Then unfurl it. If the wind changes and you no longer want to use it just roll it up. If you aren’t going to be using it for a while just lower the halyard and disconnect it from the Furler. It is only attached at the head, tack and clew.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Happ

I would suggest the following. Go with an Asymmetric on Harken Reflex Furler. You hoist the sail furled. Then unfurl it. If the wind changes and you no longer want to use it just roll it up. If you aren’t going to be using it for a while just lower the halyard and disconnect it from the Furler. It is only attached at the head, tack and clew.

Sorry. I don’t mean to be disagreeing with you that much. But you did post in a couple of my threads.

Wouldn’t putting a Spinnaker on a Furler ruin the shape?

A spinnaker has a very bellied out sail. I don’t know the right word for that. But it sticks out like a fat stomach.

If you put it on a furlough, it’s going to flatten one edge out completely.

I think that would take away from the performance potential right?

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Sorry. I don’t mean to be disagreeing with you that much. But you did post in a couple of my threads.

Wouldn’t putting a Spinnaker on a Furler ruin the shape?

A spinnaker has a very bellied out sail. I don’t know the right word for that. But it sticks out like a fat stomach.

If you put it on a furlough, it’s going to flatten one edge out completely.

I think that would take away from the performance potential right?

No Problem. You asked some very good questions. Let me start by saying the Luff is not attached. There is no foil or luff track involved. There is what is called a Torsion Cable. It is attached to fittings sewn onto the head and tack of the sail. The head fitting is attached directly to the halyard. The tack fitting is attached to the furling drum. So when you furl the spinnaker it furls from the top down thus furling it nice and tight. When you want to put the sail away you just lower the halyard and fold the into a bag with the cable attached.

A unique feature of this system is is there are 3 sets of fittings so any sail not requiring a foil can be deployed like a Code Zero. The other Top Down Furlers available do not have the option to fly sails that do not need a Torsion Cable. North builds a sail called a Helix System that uses a Structured Luff effectively sewing the cable into the Luff.

May I suggest you go on Harken’s website. I think they have a video showing how the Reflex Furler works.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Happ

No Problem. You asked some very good questions. Let me start by saying the Luff is not attached. There is no foil or luff track involved. There is what is called a Torsion Cable. It is attached to fittings sewn onto the head and tack of the sail. The head fitting is attached directly to the halyard. The tack fitting is attached to the furling drum. So when you furl the spinnaker it furls from the top down thus furling it nice and tight. When you want to put the sail away you just lower the halyard and fold the into a bag with the cable attached.

A unique feature of this system is is there are 3 sets of fittings so any sail not requiring a foil can be deployed like a Code Zero. The other Top Down Furlers available do not have the option to fly sails that do not need a Torsion Cable. North builds a sail called a Helix System that uses a Structured Luff effectively sewing the cable into the Luff.

May I suggest you go on Harken’s website. I think they have a video showing how the Reflex Furler works.

Those are pretty cool. They seem like they would be useful when I’m at a point where I am going to be doing something more complicated.

Something with that complexity though is not in the mission statement of this thread.

This thread was about how to fly something simply.

So, there is no extra forestay or bowsprit currently. Nowhere to put this thing. It requires some extra parts that are not on the boat yet.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Those are pretty cool. They seem like they would be useful when I’m at a point where I am going to be doing something more complicated.

Something with that complexity though is not in the mission statement of this thread.

This thread was about how to fly something simply.

So, there is no extra forestay or bowsprit currently. Nowhere to put this thing. It requires some extra parts that are not on the boat yet.

It was my thought this was the simplest way to fly a Spinnaker. There are bolt on sprits available. It’s the way I’m going on the next boat. Sorry if i wasted your time. I thought i was adding to your want.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Happ

It was my thought this was the simplest way to fly a Spinnaker. There are bolt on sprits available. It’s the way I’m going on the next boat. Sorry if i wasted your time. I thought i was adding to your want.

It’s a good tool.

Just wrong kind of simplicity. Ha ha.

I need simplicity of rigging for now without buying a lot of extra things and installing a lot of extra things.

The top down furler is simplicity of flying rather than simplicity of rigging.

A misunderstanding or lack of definition on my part of simplicity.

You added to my knowledge. Not a waste of time at all. Looks very good for a later stage when I have a bowsprit and extra forestay.

Doesn’t look like deploying and dousing an asymmetrical can get any easier than the Harken video.

This winter, I won’t have a bowsprit or extra forestay (so no screecher or code 0 either), so there is nowhere to install a top down furler. I need a solution that uses my bow cleats and midship or aft cleats to fly something. (For now) Symmetric looks like the most simple as this thread progressed.

[malbert73]

I really want to replace my sock with top down furler (except for $$) as I think they are slick. But my sailmaker buddy tells me for downwind chutes like mine which are fuller they don’t work very well. Need asymmetric/flatter chutes which pretty much negates the advantage as I don’t need help reaching as my genoa works down to 120AWA