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catsketcher · 06-01-2023, 13:50

Gday Chotu,

I have had my cat for 23 years now, time flies. I am a racer in dinghies and cats and know how to gybe downwind in apparent wind boats. So when I launched my cat I got an assy made.

I spent a couple of years gybing downwind and could do it well, playing pressure and gybing on lifts. But a few years ago I sold the assy and now have two symmetricals and a reacher. I don't want an assy any more.

Assys work really well to generate apparent wind on really fast boats. You more than double the sail area on a typical assy skiff. Then you head up to get it to start flowing and bear away - to wherever the assy takes you. You never steer a course with an assy that is doing its job, it tells you where to steer. This is not really good for cruising.

Another problem is that assys are great for monos, in that no pole is needed, but cats don't have to use a pole, so another advantage of assys is lost.

Third, even a performance cat does not reach the power to weight ratios that assy boats require. My performance cat has a lower power to weight ratio than an old Farr 40. And they use symmetricals. Even when we generate apparent, we don't pull it far enough forward to make a centre mounted assy worthwhile - if - and this is a bif if - if you want to sail deeper angles. Your boat is not as fast or powerful as an assy boat like a TP52 mono, so

Have a look at the picture of a Sydney to Hobart start. There are lots of boats trying to sail low. The fast ones are using furling sails like Code zeroes, but they are doing 14 knots plus. The ones that are doing 12 knots or less and sailing deep angles are hoisting symmetricals. I find that if I average more than 10 knots for the day everyone wants to get off. (To average 10 knots for the day (dawn to dusk) my boat will sometimes be hitting 18 knots)

I found, on my 4000kg 11.6m daggerboard cat, that if I tacked downwind with my assy, then I would get to the anchorage, dead downwind, at the same time as my friends with the symmetrical. So after spending days gybing mulitple times and picking lifts, I got an old symmetrical and ditched the assy. If I was racing I would get the biggest assy I could fit, on the longest pole possible and it would be great, but I would not sail easily under autopilot all day.

I got a Code 0 for closer angles. This is a great sail. It can furl easily and will luff and not collapse. So it does closer angles on the prodder. Then when running deep, I hoist the symmetrical and lead it off each bow for square running. The boat loves sailing this way and it is a real pleasure to feel how gently and quietly she slides along being pulled by her nose.

There is a small hole in my sail wardrobe that could be filled by a HUGE assy. For light wind sailing I would love to find an old light assy that would be used for broad reaching but the times I need it are very few and far between and I can do this with the symmetrical - monos do all the time.

So for my two cents - get a symmetrical for square running and a Code zero for higher angles.

cheers

Phil

Chotu · 06-01-2023, 14:06

Catsketcher/Phil: I was excited when I got the email notification that said you posted in this thread. I had no idea what your sailing résumé was, but, I knew you knew what you were talking about.

So this is also along the lines I was thinking to begin with. Symmetrical, I can move it around a little bit for some extra non DDW angles, I think. It doesn’t always have to be completely dead down wind but pretty close.

And then the code 0 or screecher for other work.

That dead down wind magic carpet ride is just the best feeling I have ever had on a boat. It doesn’t even matter if you were going a knot slower. You could do that for years and never get tired. Circling the globe many times over.

How do you handle your spinnaker? Do you use a sock?

And I can say right now I am the type of person that prefers to set the course and then set the sails to match that. I don’t care if I’m going slower. That’s why I have a fast boat. To make up for that.

Because I am just starting out with a Main and a small jib, I know my downwind will be annoying. Lol. Have to add some capability without a sprit. For now. Later I would be looking at getting the sprit and screecher or code zero depending where my biggest hole in sailing ability is.

Benz · 06-01-2023, 15:43

With the sock, I could douse the symmetrical spinnaker by myself, even if it got to blowing 20kts (which was why I would douse it). I wouldn't dream of flying a spin on a cruising cat without a sock.

The ATN taco that goes around the furled genoa is basically just a fairlead to keep the Assy's tackline from sawing around at the bow pulpit and other monohull wildlife.

Chotu · 06-01-2023, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz

With the sock, I could douse the symmetrical spinnaker by myself, even if it got to blowing 20kts (which was why I would douse it). I wouldn't dream of flying a spin on a cruising cat without a sock.

The ATN taco that goes around the furled genoa is basically just a fairlead to keep the Assy's tackline from sawing around at the bow pulpit and other monohull wildlife.

That’s exactly the experience I had. I have only flown a spinnaker on my old catamaran and it was great. It had the ATN sock thing. That thing had some plastic hoops and I could easily douse the thing with the ATN sock.

Do you want to know how easy it was? I flew that spinnaker inside the ICW!

gsuescum · 06-01-2023, 16:35

Asym with a sock. Attach to one of your bows and run the sheet back to the opposite side of the boat. Super super easy

**JPA Cate** · 06-01-2023, 16:44

I have seen cats using symmetrical kites for years, and that would be my suggestion to you. For one thing, if you are in money-saving mode, you should be able to pick one up 2nd hand for 1/2 the price of a new one to fit your boat. Then you could get AIS to go with your radar. I would also suggest that, for singlehanding, you use some kind of a sock for it. It makes getting sail off, much quicker, and easier to control. I'd also suggest some kind of a "turtle" for it, whatever shape works best for you to stow it.

Your memory of it in your OP in this thread is pretty correct. There is a halyard setup to raise and lower the sock, once you have used the spinny halyard to raise the lot. It helps if you blanket the spinnaker behind the main, when you go to take it down.

Ann

chubby · 06-01-2023, 17:03

personally, i'd go with a parasailor/oxley/wingaker...with the preference for whichever lightwind option

..bit more forgiving/leave it&forget it types of symmetricals..

Chotu · 07-01-2023, 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsuescum

Asym with a sock. Attach to one of your bows and run the sheet back to the opposite side of the boat. Super super easy

this is what I was picturing at first.

if I did this, could I also use it at 180?

could I simply attach the tack and the sheet to my bow cleats and use it as a funny looking DDW asymmetric spinnaker? As in, as a chute?

or maybe at 180 I could keep it on one side and put the jib out to the other side? For a really funny looking wing and wing?

Also, could I approach a reach (90+ ish) with this setup? If I put the tack on the leeward bow and ran the sheet way aft to a stern cleat?

anybody please jump in and tell me why this would or would not work.

Alistair242 · 07-01-2023, 07:13

On our boat we have an Assym that can be tacked either to the bowsprit or a harness that is set up from blocks on both bows and run back to the cockpit on each side. You can move the the tack back and forth as required so it works DDW or up to some relatively close angles. Many Seawinds do not have bowsprits and use this system for both assyms and symmetrical spis.
The harness makes adjustments when on long legs downwind to facilitate wind changes easy. You just take on one side while releasing a little on the other to move the tack back and forth across the bow as required or in the case of a symmetrical spi you use these “tack” lines for both clews.

Chotu · 07-01-2023, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alistair242

On our boat we have an Assym that can be tacked either to the bowsprit or a harness that is set up from blocks on both bows and run back to the cockpit on each side. You can move the the tack back and forth as required so it works DDW or up to some relatively close angles. Many Seawinds do not have bowsprits and use this system for both assyms and symmetrical spis.
The harness makes adjustments when on long legs downwind to facilitate wind changes easy. You just take on one side while releasing a little on the other to move the tack back and forth across the bow as required or in the case of a symmetrical spi you use these “tack” lines for both clews.

As usual, Seawind has solved the problem.

I can’t tell you how many things I have tried to figure out on my boat and then looked at a Seawind and found they figured it out with brilliance.

thank you for letting me know about this system. I will be checking it out in detail.

it sounds like exactly what I’m trying to do. I mean, I’m just flying a sail without a luff track. Just 3 arbitrary attachment point. seems like you can attach it pretty much anywhere you want to change the angle.

probably the only limitation is it might get less efficient as you change it over to a reach. Since it’s a big belly, rounder cut which is more designed for downwind. But it would probably still work because it’s a heck of a lot of sail area.

that might actually be down to just experimentation to see how close to a reach I can bring it by changing its attachment points.

fxykty · 07-01-2023, 15:13

A symmetric spinnaker is gybed by turning the helm - nothing else is required. An asymmetric spinnaker is gybed by turning the helm, releasing one sheet, pulling in miles of the new sheet, then moving the tack from one bow to the other. For what benefit?

Both symmetric and asymmetric spinnakers can be carried to about 90* AWA in light air, quite a bit wider in stronger winds.

Both can be managed with socks.

Neither requires a pole.

When you eventually get a bow pole then get yourself a screecher/code 0 on a bottom up furler and that will take care of 50*AWA - 130*AWA. The symmetric spinnaker takes care of the rest. That’s the rig on our boat and we’re not looking for anything different.

An asymmetric spinnaker makes sense with a top down furler and a complex block system to move from centreline (bow pole) to either bow. But that’s a heap more money.

fxykty · 07-01-2023, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chotu

…

Also, could I approach a reach (90+ ish) with this setup? If I put the tack on the leeward bow and ran the sheet way aft to a stern cleat?

anybody please jump in and tell me why this would or would not work.

No, running off the leeward bow wouldn’t work as all you’ll do is create a lot of drag with most of the force going sideways. The furthest to leeward the tack of an asymmetric sail can go is centreline, or slightly below centreline due to sag.

Chotu · 07-01-2023, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by fxykty

A symmetric spinnaker is gybed by turning the helm - nothing else is required. An asymmetric spinnaker is gybed by turning the helm, releasing one sheet, pulling in miles of the new sheet, then moving the tack from one bow to the other. For what benefit?

Both symmetric and asymmetric spinnakers can be carried to about 90* AWA in light air, quite a bit wider in stronger winds.

Both can be managed with socks.

Neither requires a pole.

When you eventually get a bow pole then get yourself a screecher/code 0 on a bottom up furler and that will take care of 50*AWA - 130*AWA. The symmetric spinnaker takes care of the rest. That’s the rig on our boat and we’re not looking for anything different.

An asymmetric spinnaker makes sense with a top down furler and a complex block system to move from centreline (bow pole) to either bow. But that’s a heap more money.

some very good advice. thank you.

that’s kind of how I was seeing it also. Eventually I would get the bow pole and screecher. After I try it out as it is. With the spinnaker.

I definitely don’t like a bunch of extra work or having to keep track of all sorts of lines when I am changing course.

so if the symmetrical is easier like you are describing, that seems to make more sense for me. I can tell you right now I would never be gybing and changing an asymmetrical from one side to the other. that is definitely not my style of sailing. I like to have simple options because I’m single handing.

in fact I would probably take the asymmetrical down before I did that type of gybe. Just being very realistic. I’m a cruiser. Even though I built a fast boat I am still a cruiser. Inherently lazy. Ha ha. The fast boat is to make up for that.