Swaged vs STA-LOK...Please Discuss

[ribbony]

Got it - Suncor: Suncor Stainless Inc.

Here are the other manufacturers for reference

Hi-Mod: Hi-MOD Stainless Steel Compression/Swageless Terminals - Manufactured By Petersen Stainless Rigging Limited

Sta-Lock: STA-LOK Terminals Ltd - Welcome to STA-LOK

Norseman: ?

[knothead]

It is true that the lower end of the wire is more susceptible to corrosion due moisture running down and collecting at the top of the swage. Some riggers will insert a sealing compound (5200 etc.) into the fitting before swaging. Sailing Services and I both do that. I have always recommended that customers seal the top of the bottom fittings using melted beeswax to extend the life of the rig. However, most reputable riggers will tell you that by the time cracks start appearing on the swages the wire has lived it's life as well and the rig should be replaced.
Mechanical fittings are not impervious to corrosion. I have seen them fail catastrophically without warning due to corrosion around the threads.
In my opinion mechanical fittings are great for the diy sailor and for emergency kits. If you are paying a rigger who has access to a proper swaging machine, then the only real reason to use mechanicals is if the lengths of the wires are not available or if you just like to spend money that you could have saved.

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by Geoff S.

Ahoy, All;

I am soliciting quotes from riggers in Trinidad for a complete overhaul of my standing rigging (Ketch rig, 59' LOA, 53' LOD, 23-ton displ). All quotes so far have made me wonder how healthy my heart is, but those with user-friendly fittings (Sta-lok) exceed machine-swaged by 25%. In my case, that's a $4,000 difference.

My intended use will be all salt water, coastal/island for most of the time, but someday I intend to head across one pond or 'nother.

Only thread dealing with fitting types I scanned here was for the new Blue Wave brand, and as advised there I do intend to keep all the old rigging and the makings of a new Sta-lok stay in spares.

My question is: is Sta-lok better/stronger/more durable than a properly machine-swaged rig? Or is the whole price delta about the owner being able to re-rig without a shop?

I'd welcome any empiricals and personal experiences, too!

Thanx,
Geoff

I dont know how old your post is but will add a little info for you. I am a boatbuilder of 50 years and was asked the same question. We bought our Colvic Watson 32 in 2005 and decided that because the rigging had not been touched for around 20 years that we would replace it all. On the orignal rigging was STA-LOK fittings so we thought we would see if they were still strong. On the top of the wire waas the standard swaged terminal. We used a hydraulic stretcher with a 20ton pull. First we tried to pull the swage terminal, This failed before the wire distorted. Then we tried the STA-LOK terminal I remember that it took 60% more load before the wire snapped. I am sorry but I dont have all the load mesurements that were applied but I remember that the wire broke at the max load for that size wire and remember the wire was 20 years old. So we changed the wire for dyform wire and changed the cone in the firttings and replaced all the swage fitttings with STA-LOK. We carry some spares and a length of wire. On a delivery we did withe a yacht with rigging of unknown age we carried STA-LOK fittings and did a repair on a back stay in a f7 after it had broken in these conditions it took 2 of us 35mins to affect the repair> hope this helps you.

[bloodhunter]

feelsgood,
don't know how useful your comments are for the OP but they are very useful to us. We have no idea how old our standing rigging is, so before we set off on our cruising life rigging replacement is high on our list. You've just answered the questions I've had about STA-LOK vs swaged fittings.
many thanks

[Geoff S.]

Thanks, feelsgood, I appreciate the data.

My thread dates back a bit, but then so does the refit project in general. We're in Year 8, and still not splashed again yet. The rigging question itself was delayed by a year because of the condemnation of my main mast; we just sourced a compatible used replacement about two months ago, and so my thoughts have recently turned back to the question of rigging.

Actually, I'm thinking strongly of ditching the metal for synthetic! The "dynex dux" sold by a company called Colligo Marine seems to offer more tensile strength with a fraction of the weight, plus the ability/necessity to splice and lash instead of swage or mechanically-connect. I like the DIY angle...I hope to go places someday where there won't be a rigging shop to help me with a problem. The only question mark appears to be the long-term UV impact, but the stuff is so strong that sacrificing the outer layer's contribution to the tensile strength still leaves more than similarly-sized ss cable.

Anyway, there's an interesting discussion on this topic here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ics-30405.html

But good to know that the conventional DIY approach, with mechanical fittings, holds up as well or better than the swaging.

Cheers,
Geoff

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by Geoff S.

Thanks, feelsgood, I appreciate the data.

My thread dates back a bit, but then so does the refit project in general. We're in Year 8, and still not splashed again yet. The rigging question itself was delayed by a year because of the condemnation of my main mast; we just sourced a compatible used replacement about two months ago, and so my thoughts have recently turned back to the question of rigging.

Actually, I'm thinking strongly of ditching the metal for synthetic! The "dynex dux" sold by a company called Colligo Marine seems to offer more tensile strength with a fraction of the weight, plus the ability/necessity to splice and lash instead of swage or mechanically-connect. I like the DIY angle...I hope to go places someday where there won't be a rigging shop to help me with a problem. The only question mark appears to be the long-term UV impact, but the stuff is so strong that sacrificing the outer layer's contribution to the tensile strength still leaves more than similarly-sized ss cable.

Anyway, there's an interesting discussion on this topic here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ics-30405.html

But good to know that the conventional DIY approach, with mechanical fittings, holds up as well or better than the swaging.

Cheers,
Geoff

Please dont take offence at this because I dont know how much you know about rigging. Synthetic rigging was specificly designed for racing yachts. In this you will find that the price is high and they replace stuff faster than a food shop restocks. Also they dont go cruising they go racing regardless of the distance the time is the important thing. A yacht racing around the globe does it in less than a year so the wear and weather probs are short whereas you cruising will give the rigging more agro over a longer time. Just my personal oppinion STA-LOK and Dyform wire every time and take spares.

[Dockhead]

Sorry for the slight thread drift, but maybe will help make this thread a great comprehensive resource:

Any thoughts as to the relative merits of Norseman swageless fittings versus Stay-Lock?

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by bloodhunter

feelsgood,
don't know how useful your comments are for the OP but they are very useful to us. We have no idea how old our standing rigging is, so before we set off on our cruising life rigging replacement is high on our list. You've just answered the questions I've had about STA-LOK vs swaged fittings.
many thanks

As I have said before somewhere on this site I now run a marine consultancy which helps the bank but for peole on this site I offer a FREE service in as much as if I can help anyone to enjoy sailing in a safer and cheaper way I am your man. I am not bothered about what the shops say or the adverts. I give advice from my experience which is 50 years as a boatbuilder 1 circum nav and about 150000miles of sailing and I have never lost a member of crew or a yacht. NO I am not boasting I am just giving a little CV. So anyone want help? E-Mail me on psg1640@gmail.com

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sorry for the slight thread drift, but maybe will help make this thread a great comprehensive resource:

Any thoughts as to the relative merits of Norseman swageless fittings versus Stay-Lock?

As I dont represent either of the companies I can only say thet they both work on the same principale. Its just that I have used STA-LOK alot but only rigged one yacht with Norsman. I get Sta-Lok from jimmygreen (ask for Jason) good service anywhere in the world and good prices

[Pblais]

The only question mark appears to be the long-term UV impact, but the stuff is so strong that sacrificing the outer layer's contribution to the tensile strength still leaves more than similarly-sized ss cable.

I don't really think that is the issue. The one issue with Dux is that it takes a lot more labor to splice the rope. There is enough performance data that the concept of using is well beyond fully cooked.

Buying wire yourself can be sort of a problem. SS wire is not made very often by the companies that make it. They make millions of miles of steel compared to stainless. It can sit in a warehouse with all the rest of the regular steel cable. The iron dust can get into the SS wire and lead to rust problems. Most riggers buy it in batches and track lot numbers too so they can avoid problems with wire. It's not something you would think about. Using some caution buying wire would be a good idea. You may pay a little more working through a rigger but you may avoid problem wire that someone is unloading.

You still need special DUX fittings and they are not cheap, maybe no more than special Sta-Lok or similar compression fittings. Hiring a rigger would be more expensive in Dux only because they need to charge by the hour to splice the rope. So a hired job will not be cheaper in Dux.

Doing it yourself using compression fittings for wire like Sta-Lok or Dux fittings you can do the job yourself and save the hourly rate. It is a little harder to store spare wire than rope. The real advantage to the compression fittings over a swagged fitting is you can follow the directions and get a very reliable connection. If you carry spare cones you can recycle the fittings. The cones in compression fittings should never be recycled. Cones should also be sealed with a quality sealant to keep moisture out.

[Geoff S.]

Hi again, Feelsgood;

(Sorry if this side-steps the thread topic again, but hey, I started the topic, so I can hijack it!)

quote: Synthetic rigging was specificly designed for racing yachts. In this you will find that the price is high and they replace stuff faster than a food shop restocks.

Hm, my understanding of the synthetics is that their bloodline runs more from the fishing-boat industry than the sailing biz, racing or cruising. I can see how weight-savings aloft would be a boon to the racing guys, so perhaps both are true. Jack Molan seems convinced that they're up to the task of cruising, but then he has a dog in the race and perhaps his opinion is biased in the positive. Brion Toss seems to like 'em, and Nigel Calder seems to endorse the concept provisionally (I like his not-so-subtle offer to test it on his boat...it's good to be Nigel!). As for cost, I'm waiting on a quote, but for my boat (relatively big heavy sucka) it sounds like it could cost a touch less than stainless; particularly if I lash instead of turn-buckle. Again, the biggest caveat I see is the UV factor on longevity. You have to admit, in a salt-water environment, eliminating the corrosion question entirely is pretty attractive.

Okay, now back to our regularly-scheduled thread on terminal fittings...

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by Pblais

I don't really think that is the issue. The one issue with Dux is that it takes a lot more labor to splice the rope. There is enough performance data that the concept of using is well beyond fully cooked.

Buying wire yourself can be sort of a problem. SS wire is not made very often by the companies that make it. They make millions of miles of steel compared to stainless. It can sit in a warehouse with all the rest of the regular steel cable. The iron dust can get into the SS wire and lead to rust problems. Most riggers buy it in batches and track lot numbers too so they can avoid problems with wire. It's not something you would think about. Using some caution buying wire would be a good idea. You may pay a little more working through a rigger but you may avoid problem wire that someone is unloading.

You still need special DUX fittings and they are not cheap, maybe no more than special Sta-Lok or similar compression fittings. Hiring a rigger would be more expensive in Dux only because they need to charge by the hour to splice the rope. So a hired job will not be cheaper in Dux.

Doing it yourself using compression fittings for wire like Sta-Lok or Dux fittings you can do the job yourself and save the hourly rate. It is a little harder to store spare wire than rope. The real advantage to the compression fittings over a swagged fitting is you can follow the directions and get a very reliable connection. If you carry spare cones you can recycle the fittings. The cones in compression fittings should never be recycled. Cones should also be sealed with a quality sealant to keep moisture out.

I buy my ss wire from a rigger and it has never bothered him that I am rigging a yacht myself as he makes a little profit from the sale. As you said NEVER reuse the cones they are cheap enough to carry plenty of spares

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by Geoff S.

Hi again, Feelsgood;

(Sorry if this side-steps the thread topic again, but hey, I started the topic, so I can hijack it!)

quote: Synthetic rigging was specificly designed for racing yachts. In this you will find that the price is high and they replace stuff faster than a food shop restocks.

Hm, my understanding of the synthetics is that their bloodline runs more from the fishing-boat industry than the sailing biz, racing or cruising. I can see how weight-savings aloft would be a boon to the racing guys, so perhaps both are true. Jack Molan seems convinced that they're up to the task of cruising, but then he has a dog in the race and perhaps his opinion is biased in the positive. Brion Toss seems to like 'em, and Nigel Calder seems to endorse the concept provisionally (I like his not-so-subtle offer to test it on his boat...it's good to be Nigel!). As for cost, I'm waiting on a quote, but for my boat (relatively big heavy sucka) it sounds like it could cost a touch less than stainless; particularly if I lash instead of turn-buckle. Again, the biggest caveat I see is the UV factor on longevity. You have to admit, in a salt-water environment, eliminating the corrosion question entirely is pretty attractive.

Okay, now back to our regularly-scheduled thread on terminal fittings...

If you fill the STA-LOK fittings with sikaflex no probs with water in the fitting but I must add that the fittings that were on our yacht had no sealant in them AND no corrosion I think that the water can pass through them erhaps we should test this.

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by knothead

It is true that the lower end of the wire is more susceptible to corrosion due moisture running down and collecting at the top of the swage. Some riggers will insert a sealing compound (5200 etc.) into the fitting before swaging. Sailing Services and I both do that. I have always recommended that customers seal the top of the bottom fittings using melted beeswax to extend the life of the rig. However, most reputable riggers will tell you that by the time cracks start appearing on the swages the wire has lived it's life as well and the rig should be replaced.
Mechanical fittings are not impervious to corrosion. I have seen them fail catastrophically without warning due to corrosion around the threads.
In my opinion mechanical fittings are great for the diy sailor and for emergency kits. If you are paying a rigger who has access to a proper swaging machine, then the only real reason to use mechanicals is if the lengths of the wires are not available or if you just like to spend money that you could have saved.

Hhhhhhm! I would like to know which make of mechanical fitting you saw fail. I am not doubting you but in 5years of investigating the merrits and non merits of Sta-Lok type fittings I have spoken and E-Mailed nearly 500 people and NON had had a failure on ANY yacht of varying sizes doing all sorts of sailing.

[Mr Micawber]

I looked at all riggings available when it came time to re-rig our self-rebuilt Solaris 42 ketch catamaran.
Sta-Lok was the strongest and best engineered of the options. We live on a remote island where swaging is only available to 6m. So the DIY aspect was important factor since we needed larger sizes. Living and working in remote Alaska taught the importance of self-reliance.
One of the problems we faced was that our shrouds fit into the mast via swaged T-slots. The other masthead fittings were not a problem because Sta-Lok made and stocked the necessary eye and fork fittings.
I spoke to Sta-Lok in Essex, England about the problem and they would produce the swaged fittings onto the chosen wires but this was no real advantage.
Fortunately we have a top stainless welder and engineer on the island and took his advice. In the end I was able to cut the old forks off the old turnbuckles. These were then butt welded to the old Tee masthead fittings cut from the old swaged wire joint. Welded butt fittings are stronger than the Sta-Loks and the wires.

With this system I was able to have lengths of rigging with Sta-Lok at both ends. I bought reels of the two wire sizes and Sta-Lok fittings.
There is one major caveat with this system. Since you have Sta-Lok at both ends of the wire it is imperative you have normal right handed threads at BOTH ends of each wire. That way any attempt by fittings to turn loose under strain will be countered by the opposite twist at the other end.
If you had right hand thread at top and left hand at bottom the whole rig could get away with disastrous consequences.
Left hand threads are marked with a red sticker on Sta-Lok turnbuckles. Make sure these are always at the bottom.
I am a bit doubtful of the barrel fittings that I chose because they rely on tightening via a cylindrical bar (not provided) through turnbuckle centre. I am not happy with that arrangement since it is not always possible to find a suitable bar in a hurry. So I asked Sta-Lok to put wrench flats in the centre of all my turnbuckles. I am pleased to say they did this for me at no extra expense save for return postage.
I also put tightening nuts at both ends of the turn buckles.
So now I can tighten my turnbuckles against two wrenches very quickly with bog standard wrenches from my tool box.
But being a belt and braces man, I also put a few turns of stainless wire through the slots and holes in the turnbuckle shaft. This just means one has to line up the hole in the threaded shaft with the slot so the wire will go through easily.
The whole system had to be tensioned and checked after a couple of sea trips to get everything balanced. I used a 4ft level to make sure the masts were both at the same angle and vertical. It was easy to cut the wire with a thin stainless cutting disk on board with the rotary cutter. I trimmed the wire edges smooth to get rid of burs the same way. I filled the fittings with marine grease and tightened the Sta-Loks till the grease came out. There is no need to over tighten.
When wires were shortened after use, it was easy to replace the cones with spares kept on board. It is fairly simply procedure. There is a slot in the cones that allows compression on tightening. This cone is the heart of the system and puts the wire under huge pressure through its two tapered surfaces. So it is important to make sure a wire strand (one of 19) does not get into the slot. It is not difficult to keep out since the slot runs up and down while the wire twists across.
We have tested these now over several years in quite strong blows with no problem. It is a delight to be able to fix one’s own rigging wherever we happen to be.
We were out having a fantastic sail when by genoa roller furling motor broke its shaft. We were trying to reef in the genny to enter a harbour in a busy shipping channel. I could not budge the rod furler manually from the bow either. So being unable to wind the genny round the forestay, I had to roll the boat around the sail. With the rudder hard to starboard, one engine in forward the other reverse my wife and I wound the genoa up. We must have looked an idiotic sight going round in tight circles through 6 foot waves in a hard blow. But necessity is the mother of invention and it did the job.
I later found the rod furler had been put on to tighten in the wrong direction. It was designed to reef tighten against an internal thread against a cone bearing. But it was put on to furl that way and the whole pressure for reefing was against a cotter pin. The result was the shaft broke at the cotter pin. That jammed up the whole thing. Otherwise the furler built in 1975 in Southampton was in perfect shape with its gears pristine in a sealed oil bath.
However the same engineer that did the stainless was able to make a new shaft out of stainless. We improved the thrust bearing and oil seal arrangement and the over-engineered furler has a new lease of life along with the Sta-Lok fittings.
I hope this helps.