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Old 18-03-2019, 09:46   #1
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Storm jib

Hi All,

I'm considering to buy a storm jib for my Najad 405 that is currently rigged with one forestay only (standard rigging from Najad). When talking with a few sailmakers I have got two opinions:
1) Those ones who say I should add a removable cutter stay that can be armed when needed and use it for the storm jib as well as a smaller jib that could be used together with a genoa or a code-zero
2) Those ones who say that I should use a storm jib for furled systems, i.e. a storm jib that will be hoisted around the furled genoa/jib in the forestay

Do you have any experience to share on this subject?

Thanks / Paolo
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Old 18-03-2019, 10:07   #2
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Re: Storm jib

Alternative 1 is of course the best solution, but pricey.
My boat is set up this way. Self tacking staysail on inner stay, hooked on, so easily
exchangeable with storm staysail. Big genoa on roller on outer stay.

There is also the alternative to get a storm jib that can be hoisted on the existing furler. Of course, you have to take down the genoa, but so what.

Your alternative 2 may be OK for coastal sailing, but for ocean passages, the chafe adds up.
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Old 18-03-2019, 10:18   #3
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Re: Storm jib

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post
Alternative 1 is of course the best solution, but pricey.
My boat is set up this way. Self tacking staysail on inner stay, hooked on, so easily
exchangeable with storm staysail. Big genoa on roller on outer stay.

There is also the alternative to get a storm jib that can be hoisted on the existing furler. Of course, you have to take down the genoa, but so what.

Your alternative 2 may be OK for coastal sailing, but for ocean passages, the chafe adds up.
Thank you MartinR. What size is your boat? On my 40.5ft I don't have much space in the foredeck for an hooked-on inner stay, so it means that I should setup the inner stay first and then hoist the storm jib.
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Old 18-03-2019, 10:27   #4
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Re: Storm jib

On our 45' monohull we had a removable inner stay that we used for a staysail and storm job, although we never had the SJ up in anger, just for practice. I never really liked the idea of a storm job that wraps around the furled headsail. In the sort of conditions where you need to use it would be very difficult to set up I think with the bow going up and down enormous amounts. Also the inner stay gets the storm jib back from the bow. We had an inmost furling main and with the SJ and mostly furled main (or trysail which we never used) it was a tidy rig.
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Old 18-03-2019, 10:30   #5
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Re: Storm jib

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Originally Posted by teipafe View Post
Thank you MartinR. What size is your boat? On my 40.5ft I don't have much space in the foredeck for an hooked-on inner stay, so it means that I should setup the inner stay first and then hoist the storm jib.
73´on deck, but extremely narrow, so manageable sails. My storm jib is 13sqm. In your case I would go for a storm jib heavy weather jib size with a luff rope for your furler. Then you have the advantage of being able to adjust its size to smaller to fit conditions. Once you have taken in one turn, there is no way the luff rope will tear out of the groove.
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Old 18-03-2019, 11:09   #6
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Re: Storm jib

What I have... 39 foot boat...

Presumably fitted when she was converted from hanked headsails to furling prior to me buying her.

Removable 'slutter' stay which lands just aft of the windlass and below decks is secured to the chain locker bulkhead (1st pic) This stay is always set up prior to passage making. You may also need running backstays.

When you go from furler to storm jib you don't want to be doing the 'dance of death' on the foredeck. I still need to go frd but only to unlash the storm jib ready for hoisting which is a simple matter.

When going on a sea passage where I think storm sails may be required I hank on two storm jibs .. one above the other .... and secure them by marling hitching them.
Easy job changing the priority at sea.

I've told the story before about how it came about but I have three storm jibs... 150 sq foot/14sq.m (pre Fastnet), 100/9.3 (Bass Strait), and 50/4.6 (Cook Strait).... pic 2 shows the 150 being used together with the full headsail.
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Old 18-03-2019, 15:20   #7
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Re: Storm jib

IMO, the only seamanlike solution is the inner stay. Taking down and securing a genoa under conditions that suggest the need for a storm jib, especially shorthanded, is a very risky proposition. Loss of the sail overboard, even if still attached at head and tack, will be all too easy, and can result in a life threatening task of recovery. Not a good idea at all...

The "Gale Sail" concept where the SJ is hoisted over the furled genoa looks so good in the glossy brochure... but I've yet to talk to anyone who has successfully used one in storm conditions. Keeping even a SJ sized sail under control whilst laboriously securing the strap "hanks" over the furled sail and its sheets and actually getting them to go up, all on a pitching bow and in 50 knots + of wind... well, I don't t think this is a good outlook either. It's interesting to note that we see them offered for sale now and then, and inevitably described as "never used in anger". Wonder why?

The idea of a Dyneema inner stay, perhaps only rigged when setting out on a passage, is so much more appealing to me, and it's not that hard to engineer. Has the advantage of actually being kinda useful in sub-storm conditions as pointed out by El Ping and others, and providing a safe and effective means of flying storm canvass. What's not to like?

Jim
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:42   #8
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Re: Storm jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
IMO, the only seamanlike solution is the inner stay. Taking down and securing a genoa under conditions that suggest the need for a storm jib, especially shorthanded, is a very risky proposition. Loss of the sail overboard, even if still attached at head and tack, will be all too easy, and can result in a life threatening task of recovery. Not a good idea at all...

The "Gale Sail" concept where the SJ is hoisted over the furled genoa looks so good in the glossy brochure... but I've yet to talk to anyone who has successfully used one in storm conditions. Keeping even a SJ sized sail under control whilst laboriously securing the strap "hanks" over the furled sail and its sheets and actually getting them to go up, all on a pitching bow and in 50 knots + of wind... well, I don't t think this is a good outlook either. It's interesting to note that we see them offered for sale now and then, and inevitably described as "never used in anger". Wonder why?

The idea of a Dyneema inner stay, perhaps only rigged when setting out on a passage, is so much more appealing to me, and it's not that hard to engineer. Has the advantage of actually being kinda useful in sub-storm conditions as pointed out by El Ping and others, and providing a safe and effective means of flying storm canvass. What's not to like?

Jim
1. Can the furled jib/genoa be left up in 50 knot plus winds? I was under the impression that they can become unfurled when the wind really picks up.
2. I would think that adding an inner stay is a big deal and would require an engineering survey of the boat to determine if the deck can handle the load.
3. Why would a person wait for 50+ winds before setting up for storm conditions?

If the Gale Sail is setup before the winds get out of hand is it a useful option? One of its selling points is that the jib/genoa can be left up and not be in danger of unfurling in high winds.

We have never been offshore in winds over 30, and we need to get some type of storm sail setup for our boat. We do have a dynema baby-stay but it is mounted pretty close to the mast and would probably require using the evil running back-stays.
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Old 09-11-2019, 20:08   #9
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Re: Storm jib

1. Keeping the big jib furled in gale conditions is important. Taking some extra turns to wrap the sheets around the lower section will help. In storms we also wrap the spinnaker halyards around the furled jib to keep the wind from catching in the top section. This seems to work for us in winds up to about 50 knots so far. Hoisting the “gale sail” over the furled jib would certainly help to hold it in place too. How does the “gale sail” get furled, if the wind picks up even further and IT needs to be reduced?
2. A removable forestay DOES need to be engineered properly. The deck alone cannot generally handle the load. As El P points out, his lands on top of and is connected to the anchor locker bulkhead. Others have tangs or rods that carry the load from the deck to the stem. It depends upon the boat - each one is different.
3. Setting up for storm conditions ahead of time is definitely the thing to do. Having an inner forestay allows you to prepare the storm sail and leave it on deck, like a storm trysail, ready to hoist when the time comes. Until then, you can use the larger genoa as you see fit. Setting up the “Gale Sail” ahead of time means furling the big genoa and hoisting the smaller sail over it perhaps before conditions might actually warrant it. Until the storm builds, less sail area will slow the boat and provide less power to maneuver through or around waves.

There is no panacea. People find a solution they think will work, and try it out. Their boats, the conditions they expect, and their capabilities all impact the decisions they come to.
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Old 09-11-2019, 20:34   #10
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Re: Storm jib

I have an unused Gale Sail inherited from the original owner of my boat, never had time to use it. Never went out in a gale on purpose they come to you unbidden and unpredicted at times. You don't know it's going to be a gale until the wind hits 30 and keeps going up. After reefing and dropping the main it's been too unsafe to get to the foredeck with the gale sail.
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Old 09-11-2019, 23:22   #11
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Re: Storm jib

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Removable 'slutter' stay which lands just aft of the windlass and below decks is secured to the chain locker bulkhead (1st pic) This stay is always set up prior to passage making. You may also need running backstays.
This, which is exactly what I’m doing to my boat. You won’t need running backstays for a slutter, as you can run the stay right up to just underneath the spinnaker and genoa halyards. I’ve seen this done with a storm job permanently fixed to a dyneema stay. From the base of the mast you haul up the stay and haul in the 2:1 purchase down to the deck fitting. Being able to deploy the storm jib from a bag at the base of the mast while staying there is a real plus point in my book.
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:12   #12
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Re: Storm jib

Our boat has no simple way to add an inner forestay, but we do have a baby-stay. It would not be useable, I think, because it attaches to the mast at the first spreader area. The halyard would be pulling at an odd angle since it would originate from the top of the mast.

But, that got me thinking, if I stowed the baby-stay I could run an unused halyard down to that attachment point on the deck. Would it be a bad idea to lose the baby-stay when the winds pipe up? We have running backstays but my understanding is that they are mostly for running downwind with the mainsail up. Anyone else using the baby-stay for a storm jib?
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:34   #13
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Re: Storm jib

Allow me to think outside the box.

Part way up mast add 2 pullies, Reeve them with dynema. Add a fixed point on deck. When not needed dynema lines are made off to base of mast. When needed one goes to deck fitting as a stay, the other is the halyard. In the mean time you have spare halyards for lifting dink, etc.
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:23   #14
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Re: Storm jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by teipafe View Post
Hi All,

I'm considering to buy a storm jib for my Najad 405 that is currently rigged with one forestay only (standard rigging from Najad). When talking with a few sailmakers I have got two opinions:
1) Those ones who say I should add a removable cutter stay that can be armed when needed and use it for the storm jib as well as a smaller jib that could be used together with a genoa or a code-zero
2) Those ones who say that I should use a storm jib for furled systems, i.e. a storm jib that will be hoisted around the furled genoa/jib in the forestay

Do you have any experience to share on this subject?

Thanks / Paolo
My storm jib is 15sq' and is hoisted on a seperate halyard from the deck/ when needed
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Old 10-11-2019, 16:43   #15
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Re: Storm jib

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Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
Our boat has no simple way to add an inner forestay, but we do have a baby-stay. It would not be useable, I think, because it attaches to the mast at the first spreader area. The halyard would be pulling at an odd angle since it would originate from the top of the mast.

But, that got me thinking, if I stowed the baby-stay I could run an unused halyard down to that attachment point on the deck. Would it be a bad idea to lose the baby-stay when the winds pipe up? We have running backstays but my understanding is that they are mostly for running downwind with the mainsail up. Anyone else using the baby-stay for a storm jib?

Baby stay is there to prevent the mast from inverting (instead of the middle bending forward as designed, the mainsail pulls the mast back such that the bend is now towards the stern). Do not remove it or you could lose your rig!

If you have a masthead rig, then your running backstays are more like check stays to keep the mast from overbending as you pull on mainsheet upwind. If you have a fractional rig then your running backstays are used to tension the forestay upwind and support the pull of a spinnaker halyard downwind. Unless you’re on a racing boat the running backstays should not be required to keep the mast up. Do you have a permanent backstay and/or swept back spreaders? If so, running backstays are for support only, even downwind. But if not, they’re critical to keeping the mast up downwind.

The baby stay’s attachment point at the deck is most likely not strong enough to use as a forestay, so you would need to beef it up. But your idea could work even with the baby stay remaining in place as a storm jib has a high tack (to keep it out of the waves sweeping the foredeck) and a high clew (so that it can be sheeted right aft) so it would probably stay out of the way of the baby stay.

Rather than a halyard (save it for hoisting the storm jib), install a line from your mast head forestay fitting down to the strengthened baby stay fitting. When not needed, pull it back to the mast to keep it out of the way. When needed, use a 2:1 tackle at the bottom of the line to pull it out to the fitting and to tension it by winch. Then use your spare halyard to hoist the storm jib.
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