Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

[dfelsent]

My two concerns with an all UHMWPE painter are slipping when tied off on a cleat , and visibility when in the water.
Other boats, ya know.
Both can be addressed of course.
The tie off by always using a spliced loop over the cleat then tying off when shortening up, and visibility by using colored line or adding markers.
I have also seen shock loads on painters and kind of like having some give, especially with a hard dink.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

My two concerns with an all UHMWPE painter are slipping when tied off on a cleat , and visibility when in the water.
Other boats, ya know.
Both can be addressed of course.
The tie off by always using a spliced loop over the cleat then tying off when shortening up, and visibility by using colored line or adding markers.
I have also seen shock loads on painters and kind of like having some give, especially with a hard dink.

Yes, although the lack of stretch can be UHMWPE’s forte, it can also make it unsuitable in some applications eg for mooring lines or snubber. I use another fishing chandlery discovery for mooring lines: bright yellow Tiptoe 12. It is used almost exclusively by fishermen in the Friesland area of the Netherlands. Brilliant stuff for this purpose! It is hard to splice, but I enjoyed the challenge .

We never tow our dinghy, so the painter is just used to tie to shore or to boats we visit, and loads are never high. As a security measure, before cleating off ashore, I form a lasso using the eye splice on the end and I cow hitch that through the base of the cleat, then I tie a cleat hitch adding a few extra turns. The technique works well.

SWL

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Ben
Thanks for all the info.

Samson use just one line of stitching too in their end-to-end splice video.
Timms show the double lines, as Samson do on their eye splices.
The stitching is not for strength, just security when the splice is not under load, so maybe it is not critical.

I had not read anything about pretensioning buries before lock stitching, but I thought that a good idea as well, so I did that (I posted about this last year somewhere back in this thread). Since then I have read Timms specifically instruct in bold:

“The best setting for splice is doing the pre-tension after stitch. (on winch, splicing table etc.)”

Whipping I can understand needs tensioning, but I am scratching my head about this for lock stitching.

Regarding lock stitching on eye splices, I have reached the conclusion this is for security, not strength. With the action of water when not under load, there is a risk the tail used with a Brummel lock could flop out. It can certainly be easily pulled out using fingers, so the risk is not unimaginable. This is maybe why Brummel locks are not used in industrial applications. Also why Samson instruct the tail to still be stitched even with a Brummel lock for their Tenex line eye splices (I can’t find their recommendations for UHMWPE). Otherwise why would they suggest this?

SWL

I don't know who Timms is, but why on earth would you lock stitch first and then prestretch? So that the stitching twine can distort all the fibers? The splice is full strength without whipping or stitching--all those do is keep things from shaking loose when NOT under load. It's good practice to whip the brummel where the tail bury begins, because it can wiggle out if flogged, or make an unsightly bulge, but the whippings does not add strength.
All those finishing touches need to be done AFTER pretension, if there's going to be any.
When customers insist on a lockstitch or whip on polyester or nylon double braid lines (though it's not good practice to do so), I heartily pre-stress the splice first, so it's not prevented by stitching from adjusting under tension.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Benz

I don't know who Timms is, but why on earth would you lock stitch first and then prestretch? So that the stitching twine can distort all the fibers? The splice is full strength without whipping or stitching--all those do is keep things from shaking loose when NOT under load. It's good practice to whip the brummel where the tail bury begins, because it can wiggle out if flogged, or make an unsightly bulge, but the whippings does not add strength.
All those finishing touches need to be done AFTER pretension, if there's going to be any.
When customers insist on a lockstitch or whip on polyester or nylon double braid lines (though it's not good practice to do so), I heartily pre-stress the splice first, so it's not prevented by stitching from adjusting under tension.

I am stumped by their recommendation too.

The only thing I can think of is maybe with extra large diameter line it stiffens too much with pretensioning and the needle can’t be inserted? Or maybe it was an error in translation? The document was not written by someone fluent in English (probably translated prior to Timms acquisition by Norwegian Wilhelmsen in 2015).

Timms in Slovakia is the manufacturer of Acera. They make a phenomenally wide range of UHMWPE Acera primarily for shipping and fishing industries, including a 3 strand version with a specific gravity of 1.18 that sinks (each strand has a slightly heavier core) and a 12 strand version where each of the 12 strands has a cover. It is fascinating to watch the progress made with this fibre! I would love to have a play with some of this stuff .

SWL

[gregcope]

Originally Posted by gregcope

thanks fxykty; They do Acera Amundsen!

I thought SWL preferred SouthernRopes GP-12?

Greenline Fishing Gear - Home

Only quoted me for 100m or 300m reels. Also only in yellow.

Cheap mind.

6mm 1,68€/m
8mm 2,10€/m
10mm 3,17€/m
12mm 4,24€/m

With the 6mm 100m @ 30€ shipping for to UK.

Anyone got a links for online suppliers of grey/silver/black to the UK for Acera or Stealth GP-12

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by gregcope

Greenline Fishing Gear - Home

Only quoted me for 100m or 300m reels. Also only in yellow.

Cheap mind.

6mm 1,68€/m
8mm 2,10€/m
10mm 3,17€/m
12mm 4,24€/m

With the 6mm 100m @ 30€ shipping for to UK.

Anyone got a links for online suppliers of grey/silver/black to the UK for Acera or Stealth GP-12

The prices are excellent. A little less for all diameters > 6 mm (before delivery) compared to what I paid at the fishing chandlery (CIV) in the Netherlands in 2018. Dramatically less than SK78 Dyneema.

The quality of Acera is excellent. Due to its coating I prefer it to Dyneema. This is not some cheap Chinese knock off.

When I purchased Southern ropes Stealth I bought 100 m reels so I have plenty on board, otherwise I would have been happy to share a purchase with you. Maybe some other member living nearly will want to do this if you can’t find a better option? I doubt you will find any other prices that come close, although I would suggest you try emailing CIV and asking for a quote for grey including postage to the UK. Another member has purchased successfully this way.

I am very conscious of colour, but I think there is nothing wrong with yellow in this instance. I think it looks very industrial and purposeful. All our mooring lines are yellow, as were the mooring lines on ALL the fishing boats I saw in the northern Netherlands.

SWL

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by gregcope

Greenline Fishing Gear - Home



Only quoted me for 100m or 300m reels. Also only in yellow.



Cheap mind.



6mm 1,68€/m

8mm 2,10€/m

10mm 3,17€/m

12mm 4,24€/m



With the 6mm 100m @ 30€ shipping for to UK.



Anyone got a links for online suppliers of grey/silver/black to the UK for Acera or Stealth GP-12

I have been successful in asking for and getting partial lengths such as 60m and 80m, typically available when they’ve had other part-reel orders. Just ask.

Yellow doesn’t bother me at all. YMMV

For making soft shackles the Acera is very stiff and more difficult to work with. It does work soften. I typically buy small lengths of Dyneema for soft shackles and lashings, accepting that I pay 3x more per metre (compared to the shipped price to New Zealand for the Acera).

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by fxykty

For making soft shackles the Acera is very stiff and more difficult to work with. It does work soften. I typically buy small lengths of Dyneema for soft shackles and lashings, accepting that I pay 3x more per metre (compared to the shipped price to New Zealand for the Acera).

I find the opposite . For me the extra stiffness of both Acera and Stealth has several positives when it comes to working with them:

The strands are distinct and fibres do not snag easily so it is far easier to divide strands when creating an eye and easier to bury tails (and easier to lock stitch splices).

The negative is that knots are harder to form and tension up by hand, but this is easily overcome by soaking the line for a minute or so in warm water. The line then temporarily dramatically softens, and knots tie and tighten with ease.

In Acera’s case the stiffness is due to single yarn coating, significantly enhancing internal and external abrasion resistance. Stealth is heat treated under load, enhancing strength. Both don’t fluff up as easily as SK78 Dyneema with usage. I like these features for soft shackles .

SWL

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I find the opposite . For me the extra stiffness of both Acera and Stealth has several positives when it comes to working with them:

The strands are distinct and fibres do not snag easily so it is far easier to divide strands when creating an eye and easier to bury tails (and easier to lock stitch splices).

The negative is that knots are harder to form and tension up by hand, but this is easily overcome by soaking the line for a minute or so in warm water. The line then temporarily dramatically softens, and knots tie and tighten with ease.

In Acera’s case the stiffness is due to single yarn coating, significantly enhancing internal and external abrasion resistance. Stealth is heat treated under load, enhancing strength. Both don’t fluff up as easily as SK78 Dyneema with usage. I like these features for soft shackles .

SWL

Great tip regarding the warm water, I shall try it! Thanks.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Great tip regarding the warm water, I shall try it! Thanks.

It works a treat!

The Acera rep was visiting CIV when I was there once and gave me this excellent tip. I posted about this in the Acera thread a few years ago. So much useful information is scattered in so many threads that it gets buried.

[jroberts]

Are either Acera or the Stealth suitable for standing rigging as an alternative to Dux?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by jroberts

Are either Acera or the Stealth suitable for standing rigging as an alternative to Dux?

It would be a matter of finding out whether (and at what % of BL) they creep. Any HUMPWE rope can be heat-set and pre-stretched: Marlow offers this on almost every variety of Dyneema. My understanding was that SK 75, being what DUX is, is the variety that benefits the most from heat-setting.
Perhaps, then, there is a heat-set Acera? Worth finding out.

[jroberts]

Thanks. From the Marine Ropes website:

Stealth Fibre 12 Strand

Heat-treated 12-strand single braid HMPE rope with abrasion resistant coating
This rope is designed for high load applications where exceptionally low weight is required—making for an excellent wire-replacement rope. The heat treatment and polyurethane coating applied increases the rope's abrasion resistance, prolonging its life.

So it's heat treated but I can't find any specs on stretch/creep. Could it be heat treated for longevity/abrasion only?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by jroberts

Thanks. From the Marine Ropes website:

Stealth Fibre 12 Strand

Heat-treated 12-strand single braid HMPE rope with abrasion resistant coating
This rope is designed for high load applications where exceptionally low weight is required—making for an excellent wire-replacement rope. The heat treatment and polyurethane coating applied increases the rope's abrasion resistance, prolonging its life.

So it's heat treated but I can't find any specs on stretch/creep. Could it be heat treated for longevity/abrasion only?

No, they just have funky grammar. Heat-treating is for creep--there is no advantage to heating if you're not stretching at the same time. The marketing guy just didn't know that.
Surely they have published break load tables somewhere. Usually there's an elongation chart, like 'Stretch, XX% at XX% of load"
You might be able to write the manufacturer and ask for that.

[dfelsent]

I had fun about ten years ago taking a piece of spectra fishing line and hanging a weight at 5% breaking off it. I marked the length every few weeks. Crept for a year. I’m patient.

With the proper set up and load you could do the same for proposed standing rigging.
Or go with the manufacturers recommendations.