Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

[gregcope]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Greg
No, I hadn’t seen these. Thanks for the link.
I eventually sourced some from Southern Ropes. At the time I found them hard to find in the EU.

For anyone hunting, confusingly HMPE is the exactly the same thing as UHMWPE.
The former stands for High Modulus Polyethylene.
The latter is Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene.
Just two names for the same material.

I only started using these sleeves reasonably recently (17 months ago), but I am very impressed and I have now gone around the boat and added these to all our soft shackles that are subject to chafe.

They take only seconds to slide on and offer excellent protection.

SWL

SWL - those sleeves from oceanropes are southernropes (looking under "Additional information" tab).

Oceanropes also do GP12 upto 10mm; https://oceanrope.com/shop/gp12-blac...rand-hmpe-rope

Where did you get your Southernropes GP12 (I assume) from?

No connection with Oceanrope.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by gregcope

SWL - those sleeves from oceanropes are southernropes (looking under "Additional information" tab).

Oceanropes also do GP12 upto 10mm; https://oceanrope.com/shop/gp12-blac...rand-hmpe-rope

Where did you get your Southernropes GP12 (I assume) from?

No connection with Oceanrope.

Hi Greg
It was purchased when we were having work done at KM Yachtbuilders.

I first found Southern Ropes Stealth fibre line in a fishing chandlery in Harlingen in the Netherlands. Same goes with Wilhelmsen/Timm’s Acera that I used for making our series drogue.

Fishing chandleries are a great source of marine related products without the astronomical mark up that yachting chandleries seem to apply.

SWL

[gregcope]

Thanks SWL. Have been looking online during UKs Lockdown II and I only seem to find Chandleries!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by gregcope

Thanks SWL. Have been looking online during UKs Lockdown II and I only seem to find Chandleries!

Greenline Fishing is online and you can order via email. http://www.greenlinefishinggear.com/

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by gregcope

Thanks SWL. Have been looking online during UKs Lockdown II and I only seem to find Chandleries!

I think they are kept under wraps .

I only found out about CIV, the fishing chandlery in Harlingen from another boat owner:
https://civ-lauwersoog.nl/
They are not easy to find by doing a general online search. Try.

UHMWPE ropes are used extensively by Scottish fishing operations, so they must be sourced commercially in the UK. I see massive spools of these near fish farm bases etc.

I think the easiest way to find these Stealth or Acera distributors in the UK may be to contact Southern Ropes or Wilmhensen directly.

SWL

Edited to add: I see Fxykty has just found a source

[gregcope]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Greenline Fishing is online and you can order via email. Greenline Fishing Gear - Home

thanks fxykty; They do Acera Amundsen!

I thought SWL preferred SouthernRopes GP-12?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by gregcope

thanks fxykty; They do Acera Amundsen!

I thought SWL preferred SouthernRopes GP-12?

No preference. I have found both to be excellent.
I only turned to Southern ropes when I could no longer buy Acera easily.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by oldbilbo

And would someone kindly point me to the post(s) indicating that doing Locked Brummels on eye splices - for JSD rodes - is less than optimum? I'm not dissenting - just wishing to line up my facts again.....

It took a bit of hunting, but I found this for you:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Yes, a perfect Brummel reduces strength by 5-10%, a less than perfect one more than that.

Pretty much no-one in applications where strength and safety and reliability are critical uses brummels. The best practice is, for smallish diameter rope a bury and lock stitch, and for biggish a tuck splice (still with lock stitching - although there is arguably no chance of a tuck slipping, but the lock stitching is considered just an extra 'safety factor'). And even a just decently done lock stitch does not reduce the strength at all (not measurably).

But in many/most yachting applications the rope is sized for stretch and not for strength, so you have 'extra' strength, so if you prefer the brummel for aesthetic reasons it is just fine in those sorts of applications.

I had only used Brummel locks on my long bury splices up until a year or two ago. I wasn’t confident of my lock stitching technique and it took ages. A Brummel was a nice, easy, reliable solution.

My skills with lock stitching skyrocketed after a bit of practice and I am not finding it a huge chore any longer. Since I had the time and Timms (the manufacturer of Acera) did not suggest anywhere that a Brummel is a suitable alternative to lock stitching, I thought I would do a “proper job” with the splices.

I don’t think it is critical though. There will be a loss of strength with the cow hitch, but the independent losses do not add up. So if the eyes are cow hitched together for the drogue, it probably matters not that a Brummel lock is used. It may even be preferable if you have not mastered the correct lock stitching technique, but a few stitches to secure the start of the buried tail would not go astray.

SWL

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

It took a bit of hunting, but I found this for you:







I had only used Brummel locks on my long bury splices up until a year or two ago. I wasn’t confident of my lock stitching technique and it took ages. A Brummel was a nice, easy, reliable solution.



My skills with lock stitching skyrocketed after a bit of practice and I am not finding it a huge chore any longer. Since I had the time and Timms (the manufacturer of Acera) did not suggest anywhere that a Brummel is a suitable alternative to lock stitching, I thought I would do a “proper job” with the splices.



I don’t think it is critical though. There will be a loss of strength with the cow hitch, but the independent losses do not add up. So if the eyes are cow hitched together for the drogue, it probably matters not that a Brummel lock is used. It may even be preferable if you have not mastered the correct lock stitching technique.



SWL

I see lots of different lock stitching techniques on the web and amongst different riggers = totally confused.

Are you able to use your amazing documentation skills to explain your lock stitching technique, pretty please?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I see lots of different lock stitching techniques on the web and amongst different riggers = totally confused.

Are you able to use your amazing documentation skills to explain your lock stitching technique, pretty please?

Hi Fxykty
I will find a few links and write a description once the kettle has boiled for a morning cuppa .

I have been thinking about why lock stitching seems to be recommended / used universally for long bury splices in big commercial installations rather than Brummel locks.

I don’t think the loss of strength is the main issue. It is security. The tail can be easily pulled out with your fingers so there must be a risk that this could occur underwater with the line flopping around when not under load.

I can just see some of you scoffing at this notion, but in water repeated wave action can easily unravel knots such as a perfectly tied Bowline in double braid polyester even with a long tail left (I have experienced this a couple of times with some losses I and now use alternative knots) so it is perfectly conceivable that an unsecured tail in a splice could slip out.

Drogues are used underwater in extreme conditions. If you use a Brummel lock, I would still throw in a few locking stitches where the tail bury starts.

SWL

PS I think many dinghies don’t get lost because of badly tied knots, but because the wrong knot has been used. Don’t underestimate the action of water and DON’T USE A PLAIN BOWLINE TO SECURE DINGHIES IN THE WATER. I am shouting in case some of you are a little deaf .

[Seaworthy Lass]

LOCK STITCHING UHMWPE:

I use Samson’s technique with a few modifications.
The lock stitching is described at the end of the following pdf and video. The pattern allows for the stitching to stretch under load, and for the same reason the stitching should be lightly snug, not tight:

https://samsonrope.com/docs/default-...rsn=b2d98cae_2

https://youtu.be/qohpgnT-_cs

In Samson’s video they indicate the stitching twine used should be about the same diameter as one strand (I was initially using braid that was too thin).

You can see how easy it is to stitch without piercing the outer strands. This is particularly effortless with heavily coated Stealth and Acera strands (I found it much harder with Dyneema SK78). The video instructor says this is for aesthetics, but I don’t believe that to be the case.


My variations:
1. For some mysterious reason, Samson suggest using nylon or polyester twine, which will deteriorate over time. I follow Timms’ instructions to use UHMWPE for the stitching.

2. Call me fussy, but I don’t like the method Samson use to secure the twine (an overhand knot pulled though and cut off leaving a tail of barely a rope diameter). Embedding the hard bulge of a relatively large knot into the UHMWPE just seems to go against all the principles. I use a simple backstitch or two in the buried portion of the splice, with a long bury of the ends of the twine.

For the drogue I went all out and pretensioned the splices then released the tension before lock stitching. Timms suggest the opposite so this may not have been beneficial.

UHMWPE has been used extensively only relatively recently and industry standards are still evolving. We do know that the original structure of UHMWPE rope should be disturbed as little as possible to maintain strength, so I think this is a good principle to keep in mind. When working with it don’t twist it or pierce strands or snap fibres. Avoid tight turns and tight throat angles. Taper anything you are burying in it as smoothly as possible (I taper down to one strand and even cut each strand at an angle). Secure buried tails with stitching particularly if the splice is to be used under water.

The more care taken, the less likely you are to get into trouble.

SWL (enthusiastic amateur)

[Benz]

A few more thoughts on lockstitching:
If the splice is going to be pre-stretched, I always stretch first and stitch or whip after. A tight whipping will become loose with the decreased diameter of putting 40% of BL on a line to set the splice.
I don't bother stitching the Samson way, with runs of stitches at 90 degrees to each other: just a line of stitches down one axis until I feel like stopping. I do try to dive in and come out with the needle at a gap between picks, and move forward the same amount for each stitch. That way the needle isn't separating a fiber bundle--it just looks tidier. I have five different diameters of dyneema thread available for whipping and stitching--I use whichever looks best given the line diameter.
FWIW, I routinely put 40% of break load on brummeled splices with short buries (for example, 1/4" line with an 8" bury). I doubt anyone will ever put that much force on a JSD. Choosing a long unbrumelled bury is really only for those who need to preserve that last little bit of BL--for them who are taking their line to the very limit of the ragged edge of decency, or for those times when you simply can't brummel because you're splicing into a thimble or fitting.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Benz

A few more thoughts on lockstitching:
If the splice is going to be pre-stretched, I always stretch first and stitch or whip after. A tight whipping will become loose with the decreased diameter of putting 40% of BL on a line to set the splice.
I don't bother stitching the Samson way, with runs of stitches at 90 degrees to each other: just a line of stitches down one axis until I feel like stopping. I do try to dive in and come out with the needle at a gap between picks, and move forward the same amount for each stitch. That way the needle isn't separating a fiber bundle--it just looks tidier. I have five different diameters of dyneema thread available for whipping and stitching--I use whichever looks best given the line diameter.
FWIW, I routinely put 40% of break load on brummeled splices with short buries (for example, 1/4" line with an 8" bury). I doubt anyone will ever put that much force on a JSD. Choosing a long unbrumelled bury is really only for those who need to preserve that last little bit of BL--for them who are taking their line to the very limit of the ragged edge of decency, or for those times when you simply can't brummel because you're splicing into a thimble or fitting.

Hi Ben
Thanks for all the info.

Samson use just one line of stitching too in their end-to-end splice video.
Timms show the double lines, as Samson do on their eye splices.
The stitching is not for strength, just security when the splice is not under load, so maybe it is not critical.

I had not read anything about pretensioning buries before lock stitching, but I thought that a good idea as well, so I did that (I posted about this last year somewhere back in this thread). Since then I have read Timms specifically instruct in bold:

“The best setting for splice is doing the pre-tension after stitch. (on winch, splicing table etc.)”

Whipping I can understand needs tensioning, but I am scratching my head about this for lock stitching.

Regarding lock stitching on eye splices, I have reached the conclusion this is for security, not strength. With the action of water when not under load, there is a risk the tail used with a Brummel lock could flop out. It can certainly be easily pulled out using fingers, so the risk is not unimaginable. This is maybe why Brummel locks are not used in industrial applications. Also why Samson instruct the tail to still be stitched even with a Brummel lock for their Tenex line eye splices (I can’t find their recommendations for UHMWPE). Otherwise why would they suggest this?

SWL

[dfelsent]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

........

PS I think many dinghies don’t get lost because of badly tied knots, but because the wrong knot has been used. Don’t underestimate the action of water and DON’T USE A PLAIN BOWLINE TO SECURE DINGHIES IN THE WATER. I am shouting in case some of you are a little deaf .

I use about a 3 foot length of dyneema, long spliced lock stitched loop on each end as the dinghy end of my painter. One loop is through the eye at the bow. The rest of the painter is the bright yellow floating line from NE Rope sold as a painter. That stuff is not fun to splice. It is tied with a bowline to the dyneema strop. The tail of the bowline is stitched and whipped. I agree a plain bowline is a bad idea.

I have not yet seen a painter break. Untie? Yes. Tear the eyes off an inflatable? Yes.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

I use about a 3 foot length of dyneema, long spliced lock stitched loop on each end as the dinghy end of my painter. One loop is through the eye at the bow. The rest of the painter is the bright yellow floating line from NE Rope sold as a painter. That stuff is not fun to splice. It is tied with a bowline to the dyneema strop. The tail of the bowline is stitched and whipped. I agree a plain bowline is a bad idea.

I have not yet seen a painter break. Untie? Yes. Tear the eyes off an inflatable? Yes.

The new single braid 12 strand UHMWPE ropes are dramatically cheaper than Dyneema and when strength is considered, not diameter, I have found them to be less expensive per metre than just about anything else commonly used. So our painter is all Acera, with easy to make eye splices on each end .

UHMWPE floats, it is rot resistant, reasonably chafe resistant & UV resistant, plus it is super lightweight.
Can you tell I am smitten? .

It is a pity we don’t have a universal “gold” standard for how to work with it. Benz and Thinwater are right in saying we only rarely take this rope to breaking load, so “best practice” is often not needed, but it would still be good to know how to get the very best from this material.

SWL