Standing rigging and weather helm on port tack.

[pelagic71]

Just a note, when you let the main out til it luffs, vang the bejesus out of it, that gets the sail more in one plane, and you're not overtrimming the foot top stop the head from luffing . If you dont.have a powerfull vang let it out more, set the vang, and trim in against it. This assumes you have a deck fitting that's strong enough. Dont usee the jib track

[Hermia II]

From photos on the net I can see the mast is deck stepped and that there's a chunky bulkhead (aft of the forecastle) with additional support under deck. I certainly don't think you have a problem there.
I wrote "Stanchions" above, I meant Chainplates of course. Do check these, old GRP yachts tend to get a little soft.

[Michael Pope]

I personally doubt that the rig is the problem. If it takes full rudder deflection to counter it It is very probably something to do with the Hull or even more likely the rudder.
The center of effort of the sail plan would have to move a substantial distance (a foot or more) to counter act the action of the full deflection of the rudder. To have that much movement the sails would look very strange.

Like maybe the leech hung up on the Back-stay and the front of the sail
Luffing. Time for a dive I think. Good Luck Mike Pope

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by Hermia II

There should be no magic in this.

Haha but so far i have had every sort of solution/problem suggested. Keel, rudder, deck, mast, rigging wire, chain plates, sails, even the water i sail in.


It's great to have some help but still quite confusing.

I think need to start by getting the mast straight and making sure it stays there under sail.

[raycullum]

I owned a Sabre 34 at one time that had what sounds to be possibly your issue. What I found after many hours of discussion with the manufacturer was I had if not the last a very close to the last boat to come out of the mold. The mold should have been retired earlier. The hull was not symetrical causing the extreme helm on one tack.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Greensleeves29

I think need to start by getting the mast straight and making sure it stays there under sail.

Definitely. I'm sure people will continue to conjecture here, but sort the problems one at a time. Have fun!

[kmacdonald]

I hope it's not another case of bent keel bolts.

[a64pilot]

I’m not saying it’s not the keel or rudder, but if it was, wouldn’t it act the same motoring? He says it motors fine.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’m not saying it’s not the keel or rudder, but if it was, wouldn’t it act the same motoring? He says it motors fine.

If the hull was "soft" somewhere near the keel it might. But I said that before I realised the mast was 5o off.

[TrentePieds]

Try thinking about it this way:

Imagine looking down on the boat from a long way up while she lies in still water.

You will perceive intuitively that the CENTRE OF RESISTANCE where you can concentrate all the resistance to the boat moving forward through the water will lie in the VERTICAL PLANE that coincides with the CENTRELINE PLANE of the boat. You will also perceive intuitively that IF (BIG CAPITALIZED IF!!) the boat were square rigged and sailing dead before the wind, the CENTRE OF EFFORT into which you can concentrate all the driving force of the wind will ALSO lie in the CENTRELINE PLANE of the boat and therefore in the coincident VERTICAL PLANE.

Now, if the Centre of Effort lies FORWARD of the CENTRE OF LATERAL PLANE of the CANOE BODY the boat will “track” staight downwind and stay that windcourse, NO HELM REQUIRED.

But if the Centre of Effort lies AFT of the CENTRE OF LATERAL PLANE of the CANOE BODY, the boat will “slew around” (“broach” as sailors say) in an attempt to “remedy” this unpleasant situation by forcing the CE to move forward of the CR.

But the boat is NOT square rigged. She's a fore'n'after and the CE must therefore necessarily lie OFF the VERTICAL PLANE regardless of the point of sail. Now imagine that you heel the boat 45º, say, while on a beam reach. Again, your intuition will tell you that the CE now lies a considerable distance to LEEWARD of the VERTICAL PLANE while the CR will have moved some distance to WEATHER of that plane. This movement of the two centres establishes a “couple” (a “lever”) that will force the boat to attempt to turn to weather. You counteract that by applying helm, specifically “weather helm”, which in a tiller steered boat means hauling the tiller to weather.

Now imagine that the mast is NOT plumb to the waterline plane of the boat, as it should be, but OUT OF PLUMB to, say, port. The misallignment will introduce a “couple” (a moment arm) that will ALWAYS tend to turn the boat to starboard. This tendency that results from the mast being out of plum, will affect the amount of helm you have to apply in any given condition, and the AMOUNT of helm will appear asymmetrical depending on the tack you are on.

So start by making sure you mast is plumb. You do that by taking a halyard to a point on one rail. Make the falls fast when the halyard can JUST touch the rail, then take it to the opposite point on the other rail. If it can JUST reach, your mast is plumb. If the halyard is too long or too short to JUST reach, adjust shrouds and stays until the mast IS plumb.

Now, the Lizzie has its roots in the traditional design philosophies of the Sceptered Isle and of Scowegia. Kim Holman designed her before designers began to drink from the poisoned chalice that was the IOR rule, and she should therefore, unless she's had her rig “improved”, handle well in any conditions you are likely to subject her to. With her low aspect ratio and her low Sail Area/Displacement Ratio she won't go as high in the wind, and she won't go as fast close hauled, as does an IOR boat, but what she WILL do she will do with no fuss and no bother.

She will be driven mainly by her Mainsl, and while the jib does work in conjunction with the main to produce additional drive, the amount of drive you demand from the jib should be moderated by the need to size and trim the jib to maintain a well-behaved helm. If she's been “improved” since she was built by having her original rig replaced with a high aspect ratio rig, all bets are off.

Focus on you clinometer when you are on the wind. Let the boat be driven by the main and when the wind heels her to, say, 15º, begin to reduce sail. You should not concern youself particularly with wind speed. It's the heel of the boat that tells you what you need to do. Experience will tell you where the reef points should be located on the main. The goal is to be able to keep her heel to no more than 15º in winds up to 30 knots. That might require 3 sets of reef points. As you reduce area of the main, you should reduce area of the jib commensurately so the balance of the helm is maintained with a requirement for just a smidge of weather helm. That is why boats like the lizzie came originally with a “wardrobe” of jibs of different areas. These days most people would have gone to a roller FURLING jib, that they then use as a roller REEFING jib. Sloppy seamanship IMO, but there you are :-)

One of the benefits of sailing “like your daddy used to do” is that you needn't strain the standing rigging. Back off the tension so that the mast is IN COLUMN and PLUMB on a calm day alongside. Then work up to the tension you really need, but no more, by applying tension bit by bit in increasing weights of wind and on both tacks while all the time maintaining the mast in column and plum. Setting up the standing rigging taut as harp strings is one of the pernicious legasies of the IOR rule and the resultant high aspect ratio rigs. Those things are all good fun for the racing man, but the sensible cruising woman should view them with a jaundiced eye.

TrentePieds

[Greensleeves29]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Now, the Lizzie has its roots in the traditional design philosophies of the Sceptered Isle and of Scowegia. Kim Holman designed her before designers began to drink from the poisoned chalice that was the IOR rule, and she should therefore, unless she's had her rig “improved”, handle well in any conditions you are likely to subject her to. With her low aspect ratio and her low Sail Area/Displacement Ratio she won't go as high in the wind, and she won't go as fast close hauled, as does an IOR boat, but what she WILL do she will do with no fuss and no bother.

She will be driven mainly by her Mainsl, and while the jib does work in conjunction with the main to produce additional drive, the amount of drive you demand from the jib should be moderated by the need to size and trim the jib to maintain a well-behaved helm. If she's been “improved” since she was built by having her original rig replaced with a high aspect ratio rig, all bets are off.

Focus on you clinometer when you are on the wind. Let the boat be driven by the main and when the wind heels her to, say, 15º, begin to reduce sail. You should not concern youself particularly with wind speed. It's the heel of the boat that tells you what you need to do. Experience will tell you where the reef points should be located on the main. The goal is to be able to keep her heel to no more than 15º in winds up to 30 knots. That might require 3 sets of reef points. As you reduce area of the main, you should reduce area of the jib commensurately so the balance of the helm is maintained with a requirement for just a smidge of weather helm. That is why boats like the lizzie came originally with a “wardrobe” of jibs of different areas. These days most people would have gone to a roller FURLING jib, that they then use as a roller REEFING jib. Sloppy seamanship IMO, but there you are :-)

TrentePieds

Thank you very much for writing this out, your explanation was very clear. Your comments about the inherent soundness of the design gives me hope.

Getting the mast straight will be my priority.

I believe it has the original mast + boom. The boom is long, 14ft if i remember right. And i have hanked on sails, a 130%, 100% and another 100% with reef points to take it down to 70%.

I did not realise that it would be driven primarily by the main, I thought masthead rigs were driven by the jib, and fractional rigs were driven by the main.

[Perfusser]

I raced with a friend on his Endeavour 26, One year when he lifted his boat for maintenance he noticed the Keel "wobbled" from side to side, but one side more than the other. Further investigation showed the keel was correctly and firmly attached, but the hull was getting soft in places. When he had the interior stiffened, the keel magically stopped moving too. Subsequently the boat handled significantly better, including weather helm.
Could your issue be a soft hull?
cheers

[TrentePieds]

The Endeavour 26 is, AFAIK a FIN-keeled boat with all the deleterious effects that that confers on a cruising boat. The Lizzie is a full-keeler, and the "slug" of ballast is so mounted on a basically VERY strong hull configuration that it is virtually impossible for the "keel" (meaning the ballast) to get dislodged from the hull, and there is NO chance IMO that Greensleeve's hull has gone out of symmetry.

But something that has NOT been discussed is the possibility of the tiller having become dislodged on the rudder stock. A very long shot indeed, but possible.

So Greensleeves: IF, when you are sailing in, say, 10 knots of wind on a close reach with a full main and a 90% jib, you take you hand off the tiller and the boat continues reasonably well on her course without either "griping" (wanting to "head up") or wanting to "fall off" (turn away from the wind), then you are in reasonable balance, and if the tiller then is not as close to midships as "dammit" is to swearing, your tiller has dislodged on the rudderstock, which I believe IS a possibility with that design. The fact that the "offset", is different from tack to tack sez that this possibility is worth investigating. If this turns out to be the case, there'll be nothing wrong with your rig. You'll just have been (understandably) confused by the "unnatural" position of the tiller.

Under those same conditions the boat should have just the SLIGHTEST tendency to "head up", but it should be no more than you can cancel it with two fingers on the tiller. No exertion of strength should be required. Similarly, to initiate a turn "through stays" ( "a tack" as some people are pleased to call it) no more than a slight shove to leeward on the tiller should be required, and the boat should maintain speed until the jib backwinds and finishes the course change for you.

Back, half a century ago, when I had access to such wonderfully well-behaved boats (Folkebåde and King's Cruisers) as are of common heritage with the Lizzy, I used to steer with my knees so my hands were free to handle the sheets. No crew required to make a Lizzie do a pirouette. As many as you like - one after the other :-)

Now, since you are in Gosport you may occasionally drive by World's End. Stop on a blowey day and observe the cows in the fields. You will see that as they turn around, they do it by presenting their BUTTS to the wind - never their heads. In Scowegia the proper seamanlike word for turning a boat from one tack to the other in such a manner that the wind comes around the stern is a "cow turn". On the Solent I'm sure it'll be appreciated if you refer to that maneuver as "wearing (ship)"

Once you've got you little problem sorted, you should be able to stand in the cockpit with the tiller twixt your legs and, using your hands on the sheets, make her do a veritable dance.

Cheer

TrentePieds

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

The Endeavour 26 is, AFAIK a FIN-keeled boat with all the deleterious effects that that confers on a cruising boat. The Lizzie is a full-keeler, and the "slug" of ballast is so mounted on a basically VERY strong hull configuration that it is virtually impossible for the "keel" (meaning the ballast) to get dislodged from the hull, and there is NO chance IMO that Greensleeve's hull has gone out of symmetry.

But something that has NOT been discussed is the possibility of the tiller having become dislodged on the rudder stock. A very long shot indeed, but possible.

So Greensleeves: IF, when you are sailing in, say, 10 knots of wind on a close reach with a full main and a 90% jib, you take you hand off the tiller and the boat continues reasonably well on her course without either "griping" (wanting to "head up") or wanting to "fall off" (turn away from the wind), then you are in reasonable balance, and if the tiller then is not as close to midships as "dammit" is to swearing, your tiller has dislodged on the rudderstock, which I believe IS a possibility with that design. The fact that the "offset", is different from tack to tack sez that this possibility is worth investigating. If this turns out to be the case, there'll be nothing wrong with your rig. You'll just have been (understandably) confused by the "unnatural" position of the tiller.

Under those same conditions the boat should have just the SLIGHTEST tendency to "head up", but it should be no more than you can cancel it with two fingers on the tiller. No exertion of strength should be required. Similarly, to initiate a turn "through stays" ( "a tack" as some people are pleased to call it) no more than a slight shove to leeward on the tiller should be required, and the boat should maintain speed until the jib backwinds and finishes the course change for you.

Back, half a century ago, when I had access to such wonderfully well-behaved boats (Folkebåde and King's Cruisers) as are of common heritage with the Lizzy, I used to steer with my knees so my hands were free to handle the sheets. No crew required to make a Lizzie do a pirouette. As many as you like - one after the other :-)

Now, since you are in Gosport you may occasionally drive by World's End. Stop on a blowey day and observe the cows in the fields. You will see that as they turn around, they do it by presenting their BUTTS to the wind - never their heads. In Scowegia the proper seamanlike word for turning a boat from one tack to the other in such a manner that the wind comes around the stern is a "cow turn". On the Solent I'm sure it'll be appreciated if you refer to that maneuver as "wearing (ship)"

Once you've got you little problem sorted, you should be able to stand in the cockpit with the tiller twixt your legs and, using your hands on the sheets, make her do a veritable dance.

Cheer

TrentePieds

Ummm, TP, lots of words, but if the tiller was offset as you suggest, the effect would be the same under power, and it ain't so, he says.

Jim

[Perfusser]

Trente, you are of course correct in assuming the Endeavour is a fin keel boat. I was not familiar with the OP's.
thanks for clarifying,
cheers