Stainless vs Dyneema for my boat

[Chotu]

Please think of my boat and my situation rather than your boat when making your recommendation.

Current situation:

I have a mast that is getting extended at its base by 5ft. I’m leaving all the attachment points where they are open n the mast itself, so I need to lengthen the forestay and shrouds. I ONLY have a forestay and shrouds. 3 point fractional rig. I have all the old standing rigging for this mast and it’s in great shape.

The current idea is to add some length to the bottom of the existing standing rigging to make up for the increased height.

Questions:

1) What is the service life of dyneema compared with stainless steel?

2) I don’t know how to install dyneema or do all of those fancy little knots and loops that are used. This boat has about 1 million other projects that need to be done. Is it faster to do steel or dyneema given I know zero about the dyneema rigging methods? Note: I’m not an expert on steel either.

3) Is it more expensive to do steel or dyneema? Currently I have most of the steel. Everything to a point a few feet above the deck. I need to bridge the gap from where the current steel ends to where it needs to end with the extended mast. Otherwise, it’s $0 to do stainless. But those few feet of extensions and fittings might be expensive. I don’t know.

4) What is the difference in weight between stainless and dyneema on a 65ft stick on a 50ft cat?

For my boat and my situation (not if you prefer Dyneema or love it on your boat), which should I go with?

[thinwater]

I'd suggest talking to John Franta at Colligo Marine. You have a lot of questions and are not familiar with Dyneema. He can tell you about sizes, life expectancy (they've done studies) and send you the parts. I doubt it will be that much for the shrouds.

https://www.colligomarine.com/


I've had nothing but 3-stay multihulls, and for the shrouds extensions could make sense.



As for the forestay, most people would get a new one-piece wire for under the furler. I don't think you have a choice on that.

[Rucksta]

Have you considered replacing the shrouds with full length 1x19 or Dyform, using the existing terminals and recycling a shroud to a forestay?

I just replaced 20yo dyneema (spectra?) running backstays.
Condition was fair with fluffing just starting.
50% of SWL was typical max load.

The dyneema is about a third of the weight of the rod forestay also replaced

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Chotu

1) What is the service life of dyneema compared with stainless steel?

'It depends' a lot on the specific circumstances - but very generally 8-10 years for dyneema (sized to take UV degredadition) and 10-12 years for wire (sometimes mandated by insurance at that interval but can last MUCH longer if properly looked after).

Dyneema WILL degrade definitely over time. Stainless perhaps not so much if freshwater rinsed occasionally and cones looked after. We used a set of dyform wires for a decade, put new cones in all the terminals and used it all for another decade, and had it all surveyed at sale and it still all looked perfect.

2) I don’t know how to install dyneema or do all of those fancy little knots and loops that are used. This boat has about 1 million other projects that need to be done. Is it faster to do steel or dyneema given I know zero about the dyneema rigging methods? Note: I’m not an expert on steel either.

Dyneema is quite easy, but there is a learning curve. SS with terminals is even easier with essentially no learning curve. You could certainly do either just fine.

3) Is it more expensive to do steel or dyneema? Currently I have most of the steel. Everything to a point a few feet above the deck. I need to bridge the gap from where the current steel ends to where it needs to end with the extended mast. Otherwise, it’s $0 to do stainless. But those few feet of extensions and fittings might be expensive. I don’t know.

'It depends' would be the answer. There are quite inexpensive DIY options for dyneema but there are also quite expensive and slick options. And it would depend on whether you could say do it your self for the SS and need a rigger to help for the dyneema. I suspect you would end up with ballpark the same order of magnitude.

4) What is the difference in weight between stainless and dyneema on a 65ft stick on a 50ft cat?

We could do a very specific calculation easily, but perhaps something on the order of magnitude 100lbs? For cruising monohulls - it is definitely useful for a racing boat but really not very noticeable for the typical cruising boat. I don't have any direct experience/feedback on the conversion on multi-hulls.

For my boat and my situation (not if you prefer Dyneema or love it on your boat), which should I go with?

Depends on how you value performance vs 'bulletproofness'. Dyneema will give you a small amount of performance - but very minimal if you are only doing the lower extensions. And Stainless wire (properly done) is very bulletproof, can't be cut or burned, does not lose strength to UV, etc - which dyneema is potentially not as robust.

As Thinwater says above - if you are using a standard furler w/foil over the headstay I think you pretty much need a single continuous wire. There are dyneema possible structural furling systems but they are specialty items which are decently expensive.

.........

[Benz]

With very little learning, you could extend the existing shrouds with Dyneema--maybe extend the upper bits to save weight. If you had covered SK99 loops made for the extensions, they'd be thinner and lower-profile for the same strength as uncovered 12-strand, and would last longer, since the cover gives some protection from sun.
Because you can get away with a smaller bend radius for these than for a piece of 12-strand, adapting/joining them to the existing end fittings on the wire can be done less awkwardly.
I'd shoot for all dyneema in the long run, but this expedient would get you out the gate quicker and with less cost.

[Oceanride007]

I'd say, be guided by your rigger.
I have dyneema except for the Forestay, Came back to the boat other day (After 4 months) and found backstay on the deck. WTF, local rigger hates dyneema, but I'm not going to change on his say so.
My rig is 5 yo, this is a very unusual failure, original rigger wants to know for sure. But due to hard stand rules, I'm not allowed up and haven't investigated yet.
I'd be very surprised if any rigger would agree to extend your existing rigging with Dyneema.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

I'd say, be guided by your rigger.
I have dyneema except for the Forestay, Came back to the boat other day (After 4 months) and found backstay on the deck. WTF, local rigger hates dyneema, but I'm not going to change on his say so.
My rig is 5 yo, this is a very unusual failure, original rigger wants to know for sure. But due to hard stand rules, I'm not allowed up and haven't investigated yet.
I'd be very surprised if any rigger would agree to extend your existing rigging with Dyneema.

I guess I wasn’t clear. I’m not interested in extending the current reading with dynamite. I would use stainless for that. It would be a choice between extending the current rigging with stainless or getting new Dyneema rigging.

Not very interested in talking to a rigger yet. I want to know what I want first. Otherwise it doesn’t make much sense.

That’s why I made the thread. To see what people thought about dynamo versus stainless. That’s it. Just a difference between the two in my particular situation.

I’m sure it would be a lot of do it yourself as well. Not so much about Riggers more about doing it.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Benz

With very little learning, you could extend the existing shrouds with Dyneema--maybe extend the upper bits to save weight. If you had covered SK99 loops made for the extensions, they'd be thinner and lower-profile for the same strength as uncovered 12-strand, and would last longer, since the cover gives some protection from sun.
Because you can get away with a smaller bend radius for these than for a piece of 12-strand, adapting/joining them to the existing end fittings on the wire can be done less awkwardly.
I'd shoot for all dyneema in the long run, but this expedient would get you out the gate quicker and with less cost.

OK! I’m glad you responded. Now I just have to do some googling. Ha ha. But maybe that would be the best of both worlds. I hadn’t thought about doing it this way.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

I'd say, be guided by your rigger.
I have dyneema except for the Forestay, Came back to the boat other day (After 4 months) and found backstay on the deck. WTF, local rigger hates dyneema, but I'm not going to change on his say so.
My rig is 5 yo, this is a very unusual failure, original rigger wants to know for sure. But due to hard stand rules, I'm not allowed up and haven't investigated yet.
I'd be very surprised if any rigger would agree to extend your existing rigging with Dyneema.

I love how with one breath you tell Chotu to be guided by his rigger, then with the next say that you're not going to change on your rigger's say-so.
The problem with riggers is they're not monolithic: we all have different tastes and opinions based on background and experience. One rigger will advise all wire; another will push for rod; you might even find one who will advocate tarred hemp. From the chorus of differing expert opinions Chotu's going to have to make a decision colored by more factors than the rigger's bottom line.
If he knows precisely what he wants, he can then shop around for a rigger competent to accomplish that.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Benz

I love how with one breath you tell Chotu to be guided by his rigger, then with the next say that you're not going to change on your rigger's say-so.
The problem with riggers is they're not monolithic: we all have different tastes and opinions based on background and experience. One rigger will advise all wire; another will push for rod; you might even find one who will advocate tarred hemp. From the chorus of differing expert opinions Chotu's going to have to make a decision colored by more factors than the rigger's bottom line.
If he knows precisely what he wants, he can then shop around for a rigger competent to accomplish that.

This clarity of thought is EXACTLY what I’m after with this thread. This is exactly why I started the thread and exactly what I hope to achieve.

A personal decision on what the best type of rigging will be that saves time (don’t forget its impossible to get anyone to do boat work these days), money.. and has some longevity.

The hybrid system might really work well in this respect as soon as I can understand/learn what BenZ here is talking about above in his first post. Ha ha ha

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Chotu

as soon as I can understand/learn what BenZ here is talking about above in his first post.

let me point you here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ps-262009.html

As discussed above, unless there is something about your furler we don't know about, or you are not planning on using a fuller at all, then this discussion is mostly moot for the headstay and you need to get a continuous wire for it.

For the shrouds, it is really 6 vs half a dozen either way. I personally think a mixed solution (wire with dyneema extensions) combines the worst characteristics of both and I personally would not do it**. It would be easier and better (but more expensive since you already have the wires) to do all dyneema. But, even for the mixed solution which I don't prefer, pretty much all these options will work ok and get you sailing. Given your situation, it seems like the deciding factor would be what would take the least time and effort for you to accomplish - but even for that factor there is relatively little difference - dyneema is easy but wire with terminals is (probably) even easier. So, given you want to minimize your effort, my suggestion is just pick a path and get it done and don't fuss about too much and it will be fine (perhaps not 'optimal' but just fine). You could just hire Benz here right now to make you some covered endless loops and be done with it - just he would just need to know the precise length and ballpark strength required and he could have it done no fuss no muss in a couple days (depending on his workload ofc).

** why I feel that way - double the number of connections and fittings means (ballpark we can quibble about it) double the failure rate. Combining two systems with very different weaknesses and failure modes means twice the failure modes. Failure of properly sized rigging is a relatively low probability, but it does happen and you probably quadruple your chances of said failure by combing the two systems.

[pcmm]

If I was in your shoes. and had to choose between extensions in stainless or replacements in Dyneema, I would go with Dyneema, but only Dyneema from a reputable source..E.G. Colligo Marine. Some of the Dyneema out there on Amazon, ebay, etc. is very questionable.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by pcmm

If I was in your shoes. and had to choose between extensions in stainless or replacements in Dyneema, I would go with Dyneema, but only Dyneema from a reputable source..E.G. Colligo Marine. Some of the Dyneema out there on Amazon, ebay, etc. is very questionable.

Jfyi . . ..

Colligo distributes Dynice DUX which is made by Hampidjan - it is a perfectly fine solution but a little bit dated now.

Benz above suggested SK99 dyneema, which is a spec for dyneema filaments from DSM, which several rope manufacturers then turn into rope. It is a more recent development than dux. I suspect that Benz likes Marlow as the rope provider based on prior comments.

DM20 is another (more recent) dsm dyneema fiber with pretty much zero creep which is another option to consider for tall mast/long stay rigging especially if you want lashings at the bottom.

Pretty much all the reputable rope manufacturers make very good Dyneema line with multiple options in different Dyneema filaments, none of which are 'questionable'. So there are a lot of pretty good solutions - honestly, any of which if properly sized will do the OP's job. To be 'optimal' it depends exactly on how the rope/fibers will be used, which we don't know yet from the OP (eg multiple pass loop would probably be different 'optimal' than long continuous stay, and there are other factors to consider like different coatings the rope mfg's use).

But yea, if you look at off-brand options on amazon and ebay you will find potentially dodgy product.

[seandepagnier]

I dont understand how you can just jack up the mast 5ft without all sorts of unintended consequences especially if you have too many jobs already.

I suggest not extended the mast (for now)

[smj]

I used Luke from Kraken Structures to make my shrouds and fitting’s. He spent a couple of hours discussing dyneema with me and his price was much less expensive than the competition. Maybe give him a call?