Soft Solent with 80-75% Jib and Inboard Sheeting

[rgleason]

We are getting a new jib which will mount on the furler or with soft hanks on a dyneema solent slightly aft of the roller furler. To allow tighter sheeting upwind this jib is going to be 80-75% LP. The boat is masthead rigged sloop with 2' bowsprit and typical cap shrouds and forward and aft lowers with the typical problems associated with sheeting from the railing for smaller jibs. The tightner for the 3/8" dyneema solent is a sliding car with four part pulley in the bowsprit construction, with backing plates.

The inner sheeting arrangement proposed is shown in the 3 first attached diagrams. The typical cockpit winch will be used with a second inner sheet lead from far aft to improve the sheeting angle. The clew lead adjustment will use two secured padeyes on the deck close to the cabin or mounted on the cabin side, and several low friction rings to create a 3 part intitial sheet lead adjustment, with this dyneema line lead back below (or above) the cabin portals to a two part low friction adjustment with snatch block at the cockpit.

One of the problems is getting the line back to the cockpit without interfering with the portals. The bottom of the portals is 1.5" above the deck, so the choice of the final low friction device that changes direction to go aft, must be less that 1.5" and it is using a diamond padeye.

I have shown 3 choices for padeyes that might work.
1. Typical Diamond Padeye
2. Antal Dyneema Directional Padeye (expensive)
3. Ronstan Removable Lash Padeye

Is it possible to make a tight soft shackle with low friction loop attached to the diamond padeye that would keep the line being lead aft, below 1.5"?

Can the eye of the diamond padeye be used directly for this purpose?
Can the Antal dyneema directional padeye be used directly without a soft shackle and low friction ring?
If not, is it possible to make a tight soft hank and ring as shown that would be lower than 1.5""
Perhaps the Ronstan Removable lash Padeye would give more room for a soft shackle and ring?

Notice that the Pogo 12.50 has a fairly low sheet lead adjustment line going back to the cockpit.

[Tillsbury]

1.5” presumably doesn’t leave much when you take off the height of the padeye and half the ring. You could lash it directly to the padeye with thinner line (I use 3 or 4mm dyneema for this sort of thing), or don’t forget that even with a soft shackle you can wrap the loop end around the padeye a few times to effectively shorten it.

[rgleason]

There are several other types of padeyes:
1. Folding Padeye Ronstan or Harken.
2. Dyneema Padeye Antal
3. Removable Padeye, nt shown.
4. Harken 79mm - No 688 with a rectangular loop
Harken 79mm #688 might be better when making multiple attachments if angled properly for direction of pull to prevent friction between lines.

It is about $38 and if it can be used to lead the line aft below 1.5" , and it might be the simplest approach

[rgleason]

Agreed. Tying with smaller dyneema is an idea that might work. I don't know enough about low friction rings and what is permissible, but would threading the dyneema line down through and under the padeye loop and aft work? Or is there too much friction?

What size dyneema for a 32' boat for the jib lead adjustment line? 5mm? 8mm?

Using the expensive Antal Dyneema Padeye with a lead directly under the padeye loop might work.

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

1.5” presumably doesn’t leave much when you take off the height of the padeye and half the ring. You could lash it directly to the padeye with thinner line (I use 3 or 4mm dyneema for this sort of thing), or don’t forget that even with a soft shackle you can wrap the loop end around the padeye a few times to effectively shorten it.

[guyrj33]

With a higher clew on the jib the sheeting position will be moved aft. This alone may allow you to miss the opening ports.
Then any of the suggested solutions could be used.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

With a higher clew on the jib the sheeting position will be moved aft. This alone may allow you to miss the opening ports.
Then any of the suggested solutions could be used.

Yes, this is true with regard to the sheet itself, which will be lead from quite far aft to reduce the sheeting angle to 12 or 13 degrees, such that this jib can sheet inside the forward lower shroud, but the line I am talking about is the 5-8mm clew height adjustment line which run aft along the cabin side at the deck to the cockpit so that we can adjust the clew height appropriately.

[guyrj33]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Yes, this is true with regard to the sheet itself, which will be lead from quite far aft to reduce the sheeting angle to 12 or 13 degrees, such that this jib can sheet inside the forward lower shroud, but the line I am talking about is the 5-8mm clew height adjustment line which run aft along the cabin side at the deck to the cockpit so that we can adjust the clew height appropriately.

Since you're not going to be changing the size of this sail (no reefing), the needed adjustment range for the sheet angle will likely be fairly small. If your sheet turning bock was located in a position that set the sheet angle just a bit shallow of the shallow end of the angle adjustment range it would keep the 'twing' range small also. Does that sound right?
It does mean mounting a sheet block further forward than the aft position you mentioned. Another advantage in reducing the angle induced by the twing is less tension will be required on the twing line. Also their will be less friction on the sheet running through the ring if the angle is shallower.
A short piece of track and and an adjustable car would also work.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by guyrj33

Since you're not going to be changing the size of this sail (no reefing), the needed adjustment range for the sheet angle will likely be fairly small. If your sheet turning bock was located in a position that set the sheet angle just a bit shallow of the shallow end of the angle adjustment range it would keep the 'twing' range small also. Does that sound right?
It does mean mounting a sheet block further forward than the aft position you mentioned. Another advantage in reducing the angle induced by the twing is less tension will be required on the twing line. Also their will be less friction on the sheet running through the ring if the angle is shallower.
A short piece of track and and an adjustable car would also work.

At this point I am just trying to understand completely what you are saying. What is "shallow" = distance from centerline?

Incidentally, I should advise that the sail will also be on the Roller Furler in late spring and early fall, so there will be need for adjustment for that position about 1'-1'-6" forward of the solent position.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by rgleason

At this point I am just trying to understand completely what you are saying. What is "shallow" = distance from centerline?

Incidentally, I should advise that the sail will also be on the Roller Furler in late spring and early fall, so there will be need for adjustment for that position about 1'-1'-6" forward of the solent position.

Are you sure you can sail with the soft hanked sail on Dyneema stay partially furled? We have a jib like that and it can only be used fully out - the anti-torque cable is not designed to hold a static partially-furled sail. Check with your rigger. YMMV

We use the same sheet lead for our staysail as for our jib. The staysail is much smaller and has a high clew to accommodate the existing sheet lead. We do have to swap sheets when we change sails, but that’s a small price to pay for not adding a bunch of deck hardware and rigging. We don’t sail with both at the same time.



In any case, a furling sail that is used partially furled should be designed such that the sheet lead does not have to change as the sail is reefed. This typically means that the clew is a little higher than usual, but as this picture shows, not necessarily. BTW, this is our old jib that used to be on a furling foil and could be used partially furled. The jib is now converted to soft hanks on the Dyneema forestay and cannot be used partially furled.



For your sheets though, Dyneema is so strong that it will be the handling characteristics that determine the size of line. Much smaller than 8mm or 3/8” will be really hard to handle without gloves, especially if it’s without a cover. The other way to do it is to buy a double braid line with Dyneema cover, remove the cover where it’s moving through low friction rings, and leave the cover on where it’s handled and goes through winches and cleats/clutches.

[guyrj33]

The solution seems overly complicated for a Bristol 32.
Perhaps you could use a large storm job over the rolled Genoa on high wind days?

[rgleason]

fxykty asked:
"Are you sure you can sail with the soft hanked sail on Dyneema stay partially furled?"

-BTW, You did not yet answer my question about what "shallow" is?

-The sail will not be furled when on the solent. It will be furled when on the roller furler (spring and fall). The 5mm dyneema is for the sheet lead adjustment, not the sheets. This is needed due to the two positions of the jib (solent and roller furler) also I do like the ability to adjust the sheet lead easily (both inboard inside the lower forward shroud and outside from the rail). I have two sets of sheets when needed. The jib will be cut about 3.5' above the deck, since we will have lead adjustment available. Thanks for the photos.

-Your suggestion about pulling on thin dyneema is right. I will have a two part double braid line at the end of the dyneema line going aft with a ring splice on.


guyr33 wrote:
"The solution seems overly complicated for a Bristol 32. Perhaps you could use a large storm job over the rolled Genoa on high wind days?"

Perhaps it is. We are switching between a 135% Jib on the RF in the summer, and 78% Jib on the RF in the spring and fall. When needed in the summer, the 78% will be run up a 3/8" dyneema solent stay that exists already. It would be possible to have a dual use jib with a RF bolt and h a sleeve for around the 135% Jib, but we already have the solent.

The 78% jib will be have a 12-13 degree sheeting angle rather than 16-17 degrees when sheeted from the railing track around the outside of the stays..

This Bristol has a 2' custom bowsprit so the 78% jib is essentially the equivalent of a 95-100% Jib on a standard Bristol. Our old jib was 95% (as measured for our larger J dimension) and our experience is that we could use a smaller jib to increase the wind range for the boat. This boat enjoys heavy winds and I'd like to be able to sail upwind efficiently.

I am trying to work the actual gear needed for a simple way to adjust the height of the sheets using rings, padeyes and 5mm amsteel lead back to the cockpit along the cabin side, that does not get in the way of the portals and leaves the deck relatively clear.


My question about changing the direction of the amsteel to run aft by simply using the line through the padeye rather than adding a soft shackle and ring which increases the height, remains unanswered at this point.


Thanks very much for your thoughts and responses.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by rgleason

...
My question about changing the direction of the amsteel to run aft by simply using the line through the padeye rather than adding a soft shackle and ring which increases the height, remains unanswered at this point.
...

Uncovered Dyneema will run OK through a simple steel padeye, but will have more friction than through the (more expensive) Antal pad eye, which is designed to reduce that friction. The second best option after the Antal pad eye is a low friction ring looped through a pad eye, but that will sit higher off the deck.

Ropeye also has a through deck loop or ring on loop that would work, but likely even more expensive plus a larger deck penetration and almost as much height. https://www.ropeye.com/shop/ropeye-loop-1



Lots of choices.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Uncovered Dyneema will run OK through a simple steel padeye, but will have more friction than through the (more expensive) Antal pad eye, which is designed to reduce that friction. The second best option after the Antal pad eye is a low friction ring looped through a pad eye, but that will sit higher off the deck.

Ropeye also has a through deck loop or ring on loop that would work, but likely even more expensive plus a larger deck penetration and almost as much height. https://www.ropeye.com/shop/ropeye-loop-1

Thank you for the suggestion. These might work well. They are more expensive. This one is about $75



ROPEYE LOOP 40-5 Rope 5mm Loop Height 40mm Safe Working Load 1450 KG (3200 lbs)



The loop is 40mm = 1.6" subtracting 1/2-3/4" for the deck leaves just 1"

So the loop could be just a little longer. I see sealant is used, so it must be intended to be waterproof. It looks like it would be an easy install.

[Differentroads]

You might want to consider old fashioned bullseye fairleads for leading the adjustment lines aft.


They have polished stainless sleeves. Not quite as low friction as low friction rings I imagine, but good enough and they won't rattle on the deck or cabin side like a LFR will when not under strain. If I understand correctly what you are asking, a large bullseye at the end of the LFR cascade would work for turning the adjustment line (large surface area to spread the load) and smaller ones to guide it aft under the ports.
I'd also mention that LFRs are not ideal for the cascade. They are great for deflecting lines but not as good as blocks for 180 degree turns - more friction and greater chafe on relatively static lines. But they will be kinder on cabin sides than blocks flogging in the wind
I'm fitting sheet angle adjusters for closer inboard sheeting at the moment. My boat is 34', my yankee and staysl modest sized and I'm going to use a single LFR on the sheets with the adjustment line taken down to a block on the existing genoa track then turned on a block at the cockpit across to a winch on the windward side (both leeward winches being in use). I've just got to work out how to fit a cam cleat somewhere in there. Oh, and I'm using braid on braid, not expensive low stretch line btw; cheaper, easier to handle and the stretch is small and largely irrelevant.

[rgleason]

Thanks, your point about low friction rings rattling on the deck or cabin is a reasonable consideration.

The bullseye might be part of the solution, but I am not so sure a low friction bullseye is structurally able to redirect a load 90 degrees from directly above to go aft. Also the rounding profile of the SS ring I believe has a hard spot for 90 degrees. However a properly designed bullseye like this would work very well and might be the low cost answer.

The basic design I am considering is shown in the initial Pogo 12.5 photo below.
It is a large LFR on the sheet
- with a 5 mm lead adjustment line attached with an eye splice to this LFR
- to start a 3 part cascade down to the deck fittings,
- back up to the large LFR
- and back down ending with a small LFR/padeye/pulley to re direct aft.
The 5 mm line leading aft will have another LFR for a two part double braid adjustment line with cam cleat.

Installing a similar style barberhauler to adjust the sheet inboard or outboard is shown in the photos, but your condition is a little different.

I was wondering about the large LFR on the sheet rattling around between tacks. How that works. Perhaps it just drops to the deck upon release of the sheet? I suppose I could muffle it with a cloth cover or something. I have no experience with this gear really.