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Old 30-07-2020, 02:42   #1
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Sheeting angles on inner forestay

Hi all,

I am in the process of setting up a removable inner forestay. The mast has a well placed halyard sheave, strong point on the deck for a now defunct solent stay and runners already. I was going to go the 2:1 low stretch halyard route using the beefy mast winches to get the necessary tension on a stay when necessary.

But what I really want opinions on is sheeting angles. The boat has a large overlapping Genoa that sheets outside the shrouds at an angle of as little as 7 degrees. I intend to fly a staysail to replace the deeply reefed Genoa in anything over 30 kn apparent and possibly even from 25. Windward ability is important for me but I know from experience that punching into anything over 30kn in open water you need to bare off to not get stopped by the waves.

I reckon the sheeting angle on the inner forestay is going to be about 12 degrees if I sheet outside the shrouds and use the existing deck gear. Is that small enough, or do I go no overlapping and put on new gear to allow for narrower sheeting?
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Old 30-07-2020, 03:06   #2
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

You need narrower sheeting. 7 or so degrees is optimal. It is when you really need that inner forestay that you will really need a proper sheeting angle as well--you can't always just bear off to leeward in 30 knots--even then you sometimes need the boat to be able to really sail.
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Old 30-07-2020, 03:12   #3
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

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Originally Posted by Na Mara View Post
Hi all,

I am in the process of setting up a removable inner forestay....
A bit of detail on the boat would probably help. If you set up your profile you can supply this info automatically.

Also, a bit about where you sail, because wind and wave conditions count.
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Old 30-07-2020, 03:38   #4
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

The boat is a Regina 43 pilot house sloop. I sail mainly around Northern Europe for the moment including the Atlantic seaboard of Norway and the Northsea. The Baltic can also cut rough in a blow. A North Atlantic circuit is a medium term goal in the next 5 years or so.

I’ll get on the profile ASAP.

Though the boat is a definite blue water cruiser she sails better than she looks as she is lighter than she looks. Ours is an old model with a light ship weight of 11 ton
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Old 30-07-2020, 03:51   #5
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

Great, someone is bound to know a bit about that boat and offer better advice than I can.

I can't offer much that's helpful, though I recently went through a sort of similar question with my cutter rigged Swanson. In the end I put a pair of sail tracks on the deck for the staysail and I've found them to be a great solution to the problem of getting the sail shape right for a range of winds.

Here's a post I made about it, there were many suggestions on how to solve the problem, some of which might be helpful to you, even though your question is a bit different.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...il-223867.html
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Old 30-07-2020, 03:51   #6
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

Here are some pics that might help. The inner forestry will attach just under the upper spreaders and just at the windlass.
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Old 30-07-2020, 04:03   #7
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

Having now read the thread you suggested I would probably go with the flying friction ring on a non overlapping staysail if 12 degrees of sheeting angle won’t do but I’d rather have the overlap if possible and use the existing cars.
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Old 30-07-2020, 04:12   #8
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

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Originally Posted by Na Mara View Post
Having now read the thread you suggested I would probably go with the flying friction ring on a non overlapping staysail if 12 degrees of sheeting angle wonít do but Iíd rather have the overlap if possible and use the existing cars.
It was a good thread.

I wish I could have followed some of the advice given.
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Old 30-07-2020, 04:22   #9
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

And here is a pic of the actual side deck as it is today.
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Old 30-07-2020, 04:23   #10
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

It was a good thread!

I have good attachment for lines to control a ring at the stanchion bases and at the base of the mast. A line through such a ring could be led through the Genoa car moved farthest forward and back to the winch.

I’m sure it would work but it would severely limit the staysail size. So smaller sail and tighter angle using a flying car or bigger staysail and wider angle using existing tracks.

Decisions decisions.

At least I now know how to do tighter sheeting if I go that way. Thanks for the thread tip!!
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Old 30-07-2020, 09:26   #11
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

Clew height is very critical in placement of the sheeting block. I worked with Zoom sails who had a detailed measurement guide to develop my cutter sail. came out great. I had to keep my clew very low to avoid the sheet or clew hitting the lower shroud. A high clew yankee type stay sail will not be able to sheet inside, but because the block will be way farther aft, you can still achieve a 7 deg angle like your genny.
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Old 30-07-2020, 11:33   #12
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

I would actually prefer a high clewed staysail for a number of reasons. It letís wave break freely over the bow, it improves visibility from the quite high set exterior helm, but crucially it will maintain visibility from my pride and joy, the pilothouse. But the fore triangle is going to be quite small as it will effectively be a cutterís staysail on a sloop. Would a high chewed staysail be worth having over a storm jib in such a small foretriangle?
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Old 30-07-2020, 13:35   #13
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

Instead of trying to solve this theoretically you should just take the boat out for a sail. Rig a block with lines to various strong points and adjust to change the angles until you find the right location. Friends of mine tied off the staysail sheet blocks to handrails for years before properly mounting them.

Staysails don't usually work very well inside a genoa but excel with a yankee. On its own forward you may need a larger sheeting angle than when set in the slot between jib and main. There is a lot of variation in locations and relative sizes of sails so as always you will have to work out what is best for your boat - there is no one solution for all cutters.

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Old 30-07-2020, 13:53   #14
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

I choose to keep my clew low and sheet inside b/c 1) I (like you) had a small triangle with my cutter stay and the low clew maximized sail area, 2) I was most concerned with upwind performance to get off a lee shore and wanted higher aspect ratio with low center of effort, 3) the inside sheeting allows flying it with the genny which I probably could not do with a high clew sheeted outside (never flew both anyway). If I had gone with a higher clew, I would have certainly increased the foot and had a bit of overlap to increase size. And that's what I would recommend you to do if you go high clew.

Determine the sail area you want based on the wind speeds you intend to fly your sail at. I ended up with a small hole in performance, I could hold my genny to low-mid 20's apparent upwind, but the cutter was under powered until 30knts. That said, I flew it in upper 20's a few times and while I was a little under powered, I pointed much better and it was comfortable. I didn't carry a storm sail. My cutter area (195sqft) was between a #3 working jib (235sqft) and storm sail (145sqft) and I figured I could fly it alone and sail up to 50knts... my Max wind speed for sailing upwind. In retrospect, I may have gotten more use out of a larger high clew sail sheeted outside that was better for the mid 20's and up. But I would not have had as good of a storm setup, though we never sailed in anything over 38knts so... didn't really need it... This was on a 1975 Tartan 41.
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Old 31-07-2020, 00:36   #15
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Re: Sheeting angles on inner forestay

Yeah it’s just that hole in my performance that I want to avoid. I want the staysail to be able to drive the boat when I switch to it at about 25 apparent. Maybe the solution here is easy. Have two staysails. A non overlapping low clewed staysail jib that will double as a Storm jib and that sheets inside on a flying car for best upwind performance and a high clewed larger overlapping staysail that sheets outside the shrouds to the Genoa track. Aside from having to carry a small extra sail and some tackle i Could have the best of both worlds.

If I don’t have to claw to windward or if wind speed is sub 40s then the go to sail would be the larger one. Otherwise I go for the smaller one.
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