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SF Bay Dude · 24-11-2019, 12:39

My head is spinning with all these choices. My old New England VPC (which Brian Toss advocates as a great "cruiser's choice") is in need of replacement. I am going to replace Main, Genoa, and Staysail halyards + Running Backstays (Those were uncovered Vectran and are toast as well. I have searched around and found a couple of options that I think would be a good fit for everything. All rope diameter is spec'd and priced for 1/2" (12mm).

Amsteel II Plus - 600' spool for $1492 = $2.48ft Stretch = .67 @ 20% load Breaking Load 19,400

Amsteel II - 600' spool for $1298 = $2.16ft Stretch is .67 @ 20% load

Samson MLX3 - $1.59ft Stretch is .74 @ 20% load

My boat isn't going to win any races, that's for sure, but I would imagine these choices are a step up from VPC at about the same price point. And with a spool I'd have enough left over for an extra halyard as well.

But I have been staring at so many different websites and I am rendered useless as a result. Have I missed something? What about the outer poly covers on the Amsteel, will they catch in my clutches? Shouldn't I just go for the cheapest option since they are so close? Brain shutdown. Am I splicing hairs here? Just get any one of these and I am good, no?

Thanks.

Dude

Benz · 24-11-2019, 16:30

Looks like the Amsteel just has a better grade of dyneema in the core. The MLX is probably all you need, and with the savings, it seems a no-brainer. Just about any rope you buy will have poly outer covers which will be fine in your clutches (clutches are pretty good until you load them obscenely, like racers tend to do).
almost every Samson product I've seen is pretty good, so I'd feel comfortable using it.

billknny · 24-11-2019, 17:18

As always, this is a more complex process than it appears at the surface. There are three parameters for any line that are worthy of consideration for these kinds of line. Stretch, is one, breaking strength is #2, and diameter is number 3. For different types of line materials, these number come together in very different ways.

For example, it is possible that your existing halyards are oversized relative to the loads that are placed on them, and the ACTUAL stretch in normal use is insignificant. IF this is true, then going to a more expensive "low stretch" line might have not real world impact. If you mostly sail in steady or light winds, this is not even worth thinking about.

Do you want to keep the same line diameter? Then your new high tech lines will have near zero stretch because they will be very much stronger than your old halyards, and therefore working at a very tiny fraction of their breaking strength.

Do you want to size lines based on breaking strength? You can save a lot of weight in the mast by going to a significantly smaller high-tech line, and getting slightly better stretch numbers than you currently have.

If you are not in the top of your racing fleet, none of this have a significant impact on your standings at the end of the season.

SF Bay Dude · 24-11-2019, 20:59

I am not really worried with breaking loads, but 1/2" for a 550 sq ft mainsail seems to be properly spec'd. I am just trying to minimize elongation and creep over time or when the wind picks up, which seems to be a function of diameter as well as the guts of the rope.

Also trying to buy the best rope at a reasonable price. I doubt I will do this again for this boat. Thanks for the advice. Here's to tight halyards and trimmed sails.

B-Baysailer · 25-11-2019, 16:48

I don't know if 7/16 would work for you but check hamilton marine rope deals they have some endura braid there is one 150' for 141$

Orion Jim · 25-11-2019, 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SF Bay Dude

My head is spinning with all these choices. My old New England VPC (which Brian Toss advocates as a great "cruiser's choice") is in need of replacement. I am going to replace Main, Genoa, and Staysail halyards + Running Backstays (Those were uncovered Vectran and are toast as well. I have searched around and found a couple of options that I think would be a good fit for everything. All rope diameter is spec'd and priced for 1/2" (12mm).

Amsteel II Plus - 600' spool for $1492 = $2.48ft Stretch = .67 @ 20% load Breaking Load 19,400

Amsteel II - 600' spool for $1298 = $2.16ft Stretch is .67 @ 20% load

Samson MLX3 - $1.59ft Stretch is .74 @ 20% load

My boat isn't going to win any races, that's for sure, but I would imagine these choices are a step up from VPC at about the same price point. And with a spool I'd have enough left over for an extra halyard as well.

But I have been staring at so many different websites and I am rendered useless as a result. Have I missed something? What about the outer poly covers on the Amsteel, will they catch in my clutches? Shouldn't I just go for the cheapest option since they are so close? Brain shutdown. Am I splicing hairs here? Just get any one of these and I am good, no?

Thanks.

Dude

You should look into New England Ropes Viper.......that’s what I’m going with. It has a nice “hand” which is important to me. The HMPE core assures minimal stretch.

SF Bay Dude · 26-11-2019, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Baysailer

I don't know if 7/16 would work for you but check hamilton marine rope deals they have some endura braid there is one 150' for 141$

Thanks for the head's up! I went ahead and ordered. What a great deal! 7/16" totally works. Gives me half the stretch and around 4000 pounds more breaking strength than my previous 1/2" VPC. Plus I also picked up some 7/16" V-12 for my running backs, and some bare Endura 1/4" for my topping lift. Everything is pretty much a buck a foot (minus the 1/4" stuff).

Now to get a fid set and splice in the shackles. I have been tempted to just tie a halyard knot so I can replace the knot every so often and move the load around, but I also know this decreases the rope strength. Anybody have ideas on that?

B-Baysailer · 26-11-2019, 12:56

Good that it worked for you

Benz · 26-11-2019, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SF Bay Dude

Thanks for the head's up! I went ahead and ordered. What a great deal! 7/16" totally works. Gives me half the stretch and around 4000 pounds more breaking strength than my previous 1/2" VPC. Plus I also picked up some 7/16" V-12 for my running backs, and some bare Endura 1/4" for my topping lift. Everything is pretty much a buck a foot (minus the 1/4" stuff).

Now to get a fid set and splice in the shackles. I have been tempted to just tie a halyard knot so I can replace the knot every so often and move the load around, but I also know this decreases the rope strength. Anybody have ideas on that?

You should never tie a knot where a splice will do, and you should never tie knots in endura braid or any other high modulus rope. If you're concerned about wear near the end, buy enough extra that you can cut off the splice and end-for-end the rope several times before it gets too short. If you sail enough to need to replace the line before the sun cooks the cover anyhow, you'll have gotten your money's worth.

SF Bay Dude · 27-11-2019, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz

You should never tie a knot where a splice will do, and you should never tie knots in endura braid or any other high modulus rope. If you're concerned about wear near the end, buy enough extra that you can cut off the splice and end-for-end the rope several times before it gets too short. If you sail enough to need to replace the line before the sun cooks the cover anyhow, you'll have gotten your money's worth.

thinwater · 27-11-2019, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz

You should never tie a knot where a splice will do, and you should never tie knots in endura braid or any other high modulus rope....

What an interesting way to twist common sense. Someone else might say, "There is no need for a splice where a knot will do." However, you need to read that statement accurately.

a. A knot is not appropriate on high modulous lines, because if all UHMPE it will slip, if polyester cover it will overload the cover, and if the line is sized for strength, it will weaken the rope. A knot will not do.

b. Many (most) ropes on most boats are sized either for hand or for stretch, including high mod halyards. They break from chafe, not knots. A knot may do. In fact, it may do better.

c. Some ropes are sized for strength (lifelines, standing rigging, genoa sheets) and thus a knot won't do.

d. Sometimes a knot is too bulky. Splice it, although a sewn splice can work. But a knot won't do.

I've got both and know perfectly well how to splice. But there are times I don't want to.

**Jim Cate** · 27-11-2019, 13:43

Quote:

Some ropes are sized for strength (lifelines, standing rigging, genoa sheets) and thus a knot won't do.

While I agree with your general thesis here, the majority of yachts I've been on use knots to attach genoa sheets to the sail. There are lots of alternative methods, but the common bowline is very often the choice selected, and thus a knot will indeed do.

Jim

Benz · 27-11-2019, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater

What an interesting way to twist common sense. Someone else might say, "There is no need for a splice where a knot will do." However, you need to read that statement accurately.

a. A knot is not appropriate on high modulous lines, because if all UHMPE it will slip, if polyester cover it will overload the cover, and if the line is sized for strength, it will weaken the rope. A knot will not do.

b. Many (most) ropes on most boats are sized either for hand or for stretch, including high mod halyards. They break from chafe, not knots. A knot may do. In fact, it may do better.

c. Some ropes are sized for strength (lifelines, standing rigging, genoa sheets) and thus a knot won't do.

d. Sometimes a knot is too bulky. Splice it, although a sewn splice can work. But a knot won't do.

I've got both and know perfectly well how to splice. But there are times I don't want to.

Well, it wasn't meant to be confusing: I mean that a splice is always to be preferred unless there's compelling reason to use a knot instead. I use knots for my polyester headsail sheets, but only because a splice would be less convenient.

Tillsbury · 27-11-2019, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

While I agree with your general thesis here, the majority of yachts I've been on use knots to attach genoa sheets to the sail. There are lots of alternative methods, but the common bowline is very often the choice selected, and thus a knot will indeed do.

Jim

But splices in the genoa sheets and a soft shackle is so much better...