Roller Furling Mast problems

[Tom Boles]

I have a 1999 Hunter 380 with an in-mast roller furling main. The boat was extremely lightly used....the main is the original one...now at least 22 years old, assuming the main was brand new when the boat was made. It still has a lot of it's original stiffness, but it is obviously old. When I bought the boat the main was extremely hard to get off...stuck about 2/3rds the way up the mast. I finally did...had some minor repairs done on the clew....and put it back on...pulling the halyard as tight as I could, knowing that was important, and then slowly rolling it in. Now I can only unfurl it about a third....stuck again.

My questions for the group....1) is this most likely an "old" main issue that can't be fixed with the current main? 2) if that is the case, can the main be "re-cut" making it smaller, but easier to furl......or do I need to start with a new main. 3) if it is ok, could this just be me doing something wrong?

I would appreciate any input anyone can give. When I go to the Hunter 380 review section people just "love"' their roller furling main. I am not even in the 'like" area, let alone "love" at this point.....but I would like to get there

Thank you for your help

[Dockhead]

My boat has a furling main, which I've lived with for going on 12 years and tens of thousands of miles. It has some drawbacks, but some significant advantages for a boat this size and used far offshore and in bad weather. I would not want one for a coastal cruiser like yours, but it should be possible to get yours into condition so that it doesn't suck.


In-mast furling does suck with baggy sails. The system fundamentally doesn't tolerate bagginess in the sail. Since woven sails start slowly bagging out the first mile, you will find that laminate sails dramatically improve the way in-mast furling works. And since laminate sails are altogether much better, holding an ideal shape during their whole lifetimes, this is a win-win situation. So if I were you, the first thing I would do is treat your boat to a new laminate mainsail (and jib if you're feeling generous).


Then, you need to make sure that the furling system is in good order. There are three main issues: (a) mast should have the correct amount of pre-bend in it; (b) the foil inside the mast should have the correct amount of tension on it; and (c) the top and bottom swivels, the other bearings, and the gear mechanism, should all be clean and well-lubricated. You can do all this yourself, but my advice would be to hire an experienced professional rigger who knows his way around your particular system, and watch him as he works.


Get all this right, and with a new laminate mainsail, you will have eliminated any possible source of trouble in your gear.


Note however that you also need to operate the system correctly. Some tips:


1. 99% of jams occur when furling out. Be very careful to watch and feel how the sail is coming out, and STOP if a wrinkle forms and starts to jam. If you do this and recognize potential problems early, you can pretty much avoid jams. I've had exactly TWO (2) jams in mine in 12 years, first one in the first months of ownership when I didn't know how to operate it, and the second was random occurrence (inattentiveness probably) which took only 10 minutes to resolve.



2. Oops, I forgot -- I had a third jam -- when a loose halyard got sucked into the mast while I was furling. This was also not that hard to resolve, but you want to avoid that. Be very careful not have any loose cordage flapping or hanging around where it can get sucked into the mast.



3. Furling both in and out works better with a little wind in the sail -- contrary to full batten mains which like for you to be headed into the wind. Don't head into the wind, but slack the mainsheet to moderate the wind force in the sail (you don't want it powered up).


5. The boom must be at the right angle -- generally horizontal, but you might have to experiment. Trying to pull the sail out with the boom raised will jam it instantly..


6. Don't just whang the sail out using the outhaul. Use the furler in parallel, but being careful not to unfurl faster than you're pulling the sail out with the outhaul. You want a balanced, gentle tension on the sail as it comes out.


7. When furling in, keep a little bit of tension on the outhaul -- not too much -- just enough to keep the sail from flapping and wrinkles from developing as it goes into the mast.


If you do all this, you should be pretty happy with it. You will lose some performance compared to a roachy full batten main, but if you have a new laminate sail with vertical battens, you won't be down in performance compared to a boat with a typical baggy Dacron full batten main. And in windy weather you have a big advantage in being able to reef in infinite increments and without affecting the shape as much as reefing a normal main. You have a huge advantage of stress-free reefing from the cockpit and without heading up. And lastly, in-mast furling is nice for ideal storage of the sail inside the mast and without creases -- so in-mast furling sails last much longer than full batten ones do.


The first two advantages are much more important for offshore sailing, which is why I wouldn't really want in-mast furling for a boat used coastally, but it is what it is -- so -- enjoy at least the last advantage!

[Grandwagoneer0]

I love mine. But it was a steep learning curve to use it properly. To unfurl mine proper i haul the main a little then roll the furler a little and repeat until about halfway. You are really unfurling with the furler and using main outhaul to keep tension. you have to keep the proper tension on it to operate it correctly. Also a stretched sail will cause major problems as it will roll over itself bunching up in there. Also loosen boom vang before trying to unfurl to allow movement of the boom while unfurling. Head upwind also while furling or unfurling until you understand what it’ll do. This really works well for me. Hope this helps

[Swift Drift]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My boat has a furling main, which I've lived with for going on 12 years and tens of thousands of miles. It has some drawbacks, but some significant advantages for a boat this size and used far offshore and in bad weather. I would not want one for a coastal cruiser like yours, but it should be possible to get yours into condition so that it doesn't suck.


In-mast furling does suck with baggy sails. The system fundamentally doesn't tolerate bagginess in the sail. Since woven sails start slowly bagging out the first mile, you will find that laminate sails dramatically improve the way in-mast furling works. And since laminate sails are altogether much better, holding an ideal shape during their whole lifetimes, this is a win-win situation. So if I were you, the first thing I would do is treat your boat to a new laminate mainsail (and jib if you're feeling generous).


Then, you need to make sure that the furling system is in good order. There are three main issues: (a) mast should have the correct amount of pre-bend in it; (b) the foil inside the mast should have the correct amount of tension on it; and (c) the top and bottom swivels, the other bearings, and the gear mechanism, should all be clean and well-lubricated. You can do all this yourself, but my advice would be to hire an experienced professional rigger who knows his way around your particular system, and watch him as he works.


Get all this right, and with a new laminate mainsail, you will have eliminated any possible source of trouble in your gear.


Note however that you also need to operate the system correctly. Some tips:


1. 99% of jams occur when furling out. Be very careful to watch and feel how the sail is coming out, and STOP if a wrinkle forms and starts to jam. If you do this and recognize potential problems early, you can pretty much avoid jams. I've had exactly TWO (2) jams in mine in 12 years, first one in the first months of ownership when I didn't know how to operate it, and the second was random occurrence (inattentiveness probably) which took only 10 minutes to resolve.



2. Oops, I forgot -- I had a third jam -- when a loose halyard got sucked into the mast while I was furling. This was also not that hard to resolve, but you want to avoid that. Be very careful not have any loose cordage flapping or hanging around where it can get sucked into the mast.



3. Furling both in and out works better with a little wind in the sail -- contrary to full batten mains which like for you to be headed into the wind. Don't head into the wind, but slack the mainsheet to moderate the wind force in the sail (you don't want it powered up).


5. The boom must be at the right angle -- generally horizontal, but you might have to experiment. Trying to pull the sail out with the boom raised will jam it instantly..


6. Don't just whang the sail out using the outhaul. Use the furler in parallel, but being careful not to unfurl faster than you're pulling the sail out with the outhaul. You want a balanced, gentle tension on the sail as it comes out.


7. When furling in, keep a little bit of tension on the outhaul -- not too much -- just enough to keep the sail from flapping and wrinkles from developing as it goes into the mast.


If you do all this, you should be pretty happy with it. You will lose some performance compared to a roachy full batten main, but if you have a new laminate sail with vertical battens, you won't be down in performance compared to a boat with a typical baggy Dacron full batten main. And in windy weather you have a big advantage in being able to reef in infinite increments and without affecting the shape as much as reefing a normal main. You have a huge advantage of stress-free reefing from the cockpit and without heading up. And lastly, in-mast furling is nice for ideal storage of the sail inside the mast and without creases -- so in-mast furling sails last much longer than full batten ones do.


The first two advantages are much more important for offshore sailing, which is why I wouldn't really want in-mast furling for a boat used coastally, but it is what it is -- so -- enjoy at least the last advantage!

Dockhead gives excellent advice. I will reiterate the value of a laminate sail with in mast furling. Not only a performance enhancement but also a usability (and arguably safety) factor.

[George_SD]

I got a furling main and experienced some issues. As some say - unfurling problems start with bad furling. If you get the sail into the mast with folds and creases - you are almost guaranteed to have problems bringing it out. My troubleshooting taught me the following:
1) sometimes when you can't unfurl, it is not because of the sail, but because the boom car jams (this is my issue most of the time). I'm going to be replacing torlon bearings this week probably

2) boom angle when furling and unfurling - you want it set where it doesn't allow the sail too much slack to fold over itself on top or bottom. Most problems happen either at the lowest point where thicker folded and sewn material coils on top of itself and then rubbing on the inside of the mast OR in the top 1/2 or 1/3 when sail folds over itself when furling. Those folds become too thick to come through the slot.

3) line tension - always want some tension on outhaul and furling line, helps prevent folds

4) mast prebend - Z-spar recommends almost no prebend if you have a furling system

5) furling line (make sure it is in good condition and not too thick, otherwise it can jam

6) wash and lubricate all moving parts (sheaves, bearings, etc,)

7) try to take some time and pay attention to the sail shapewhen furling/unfurling. Try not to let it luff too much and watch for folds. bring it in slowly.

some resources for you:

https://www.zsparsuk.com/furling-mast-help

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/th....197357/page-2

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/th.../#post-1054879

[sail sfbay]

Assuming you furled it in on a starboard tack with vang off and main sheet off and tension on the outhaul the entire time then the sail is stretched and time to replace your 22 year furling main sail. This is my experience with a 2004 Hunter 386 and 2005 Hunter 46. Just replaced my Hunter 46 main sail with a lo stretch tri-radial cruising laminate sail and what a difference in furling in and out.....easy and tight without creases.


..

[Davidhoy]

With such old (relatively speaking) hardware, when was the furler itself last serviced? Bearings, bearing surfaces, etc? I had my Catalina 470's mast down last January to replace all the standing rigging and do other preventative maintenance (it was close in age to yours) and I found broken needle bearings in the mast cavity. I took the time to completely overhaul and service the furler, and it's so much smoother now.

-David

[vpbarkley]

In our case the outhaul car was sticky. This prevented the mainsail from unfurling. With the application of Teflon grease with a finger tip on the entire length of the outhaul track the problem was resolved in moments.

[nortonscove]

I was having a similar issue. Upon inspection and a little thought while hanging out on the boat one day it occurred to me that by putting my all into pulling the halyard extremely taut I was in fact deforming the shape of the the leading edge of the sail. My theory was that this gathered of clothe at the mast was the start of the jam. I adjusted the tension there just a little and it has been cooperative since.

Like most systems it isn't perfect so any changes in angles in the system could be the culprit.

[kas_1611]

Have a look at which way your main rolls when you are furling. The majority roll in anticlockwise. So the best way to furl them in is to kick the boom out to port to depower the main while keeping the wind in your genoa to give you some drive and control. Let the boom rise up slightly, most furling mains need the boom just above horizontal (but will tolerate horizontal if you're reefing in rather than fully furling).

Then as already mentioned furl in while keeping a little tension on the outhaul so that the sail remains as flat as possible. I find a double wrap around the winch gives me sufficient tension but slippage to furl in. Once the sail is more than halfway in I dump the wraps on the winch and furl in the rest.

I've had a furling main for 10 years with only a single jam when a rogue mousing line got caught as I was reefing.

[SaltyMetals]

I have had a vertically batttened main with in-mast furling on two different boats. I agree with everything Dockhead (#2) and George(#5) say and would add a few more tricks
1) Halyard tension: just enough to eliminate the horizontal folds when full of wind but never so much as to get any folds parallel with the luff. This way, once furled, you will not be pressing the furled sail too hard against the slot approx half way up the mast. Important that if you are not using the sail for a while to relax the halyard tension but not so much that the tack loop drops off the hook. This avoids permanent stretch in the luff rope. I mark my halyard at the Spinlock so the setting is easily repeatable.
2) Mast bend: I have usually had a little bend but max 50% of the cord width at halfway up the mast. Again this is what might cause too much pressure of the furled sail against the slot half way up the mast. The little bend i have has never been a problem.
3)Boom traveller: assuming it runs smoothly ( after washing salt off and left to dry, a bit of MacLube from time to time helps) make sure it is at least halfway back along the boom from the mast. This will result in a more horizontal pull and on its own might be the only change you need to do to stop the jamming.
4) Sail: There is a way of reducing the curvature by cutting out a crescent shape of the material parallel to the luff but is it worth it on an old sail? I got new sails for my new(to me) boat made from a laminate material and vertical battens. Definitely do not go for a main with no battens since you lose about 20% sail area on the negative leech. A laminate main and vertical battens will be almost as good as conventional horizontal battens but will be 10x more convenient so you can adjust sail area/reef much more quickly and no hassle. I got mine from Banks Bari but speak to the sailmaker first to be sure the slot in your mast is enough for battens.
5) Furling: Keep a little tension on the clew as you furl , but best with a little wind in the sail on starboard tack (assuming the foil inside the mast turns anti-clockwise when furling as viewed from above). This enables a much straighter route for the sail as it enters the slot.
Andrew

[SkipMark]

Good question, and great responses folks. I will store this thread for future reference!

[Tom Boles]

Thank you, everyone for the great suggestions. This weekend, weather permitting, I am going to play with it again, keeping these things in mind. I have also contacted 2 of the major sail makers for estimates on replacing the main. I plan on sailing MUCH more than the 2 previous owners and a 22 year old sail scares me.

Tom

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by vpbarkley

In our case the outhaul car was sticky. This prevented the mainsail from unfurling. With the application of Teflon grease with a finger tip on the entire length of the outhaul track the problem was resolved in moments.

Typical problem.


Note that this can be exacerbated by boom at wrong angle, and/or too much tension on outhaul.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

. . . I got new sails for my new(to me) boat made from a laminate material and vertical battens. Definitely do not go for a main with no battens since you lose about 20% sail area on the negative leech. A laminate main and vertical battens will be almost as good as conventional horizontal battens but will be 10x more convenient so you can adjust sail area/reef much more quickly and no hassle. I got mine from Banks Bari but speak to the sailmaker first to be sure the slot in your mast is enough for battens. . .

This whole post is excellent, but just want to note for good order that this is the THIRD recommendation in this thread from experienced in-mast furling sailors to choose a laminate mainsail.


To the OP: This is a hot tip. Laminate mainsails and in-mast furling go together like cookies and cream. They furl much better and will never bag out, even when they're old. The improvement in shape and performance will help you claw back some of the performance lost with in-mast furling.



And I'll second this recommendation for vertical battens, too. Other than battens falling out from time to time, I've had no trouble whatsoever with ours, and there is a pretty dramatic increase in performance -- because the part of the sail near the leech gives a disporportionate amount of power.