Replacing Wire Halyards with Dyneema

[rustypirate]

I know that there have been many discussions regarding the benefits and/or risks of replacing wire with dyneema rope, and that is not really the puppose of this thread.

Many rope manufacturers are producing products with Dyneema cores that are very popular for halyards, but has anyone replaced their wire halyards with a dyneema product and kept their existing wire winches?

Dyneema is beeing used as a replacement for wire on winches in many cases from offroad trucks to fishing industries, and many of them are using the exact same winch drums that they used for wire.

Is there any reason why the same practice cannot or should not be applied to halyard winches?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rustypirate

Many rope manufacturers are producing products with Dyneema cores that are very popular for halyards, but has anyone replaced their wire halyards with a dyneema product and kept their existing wire winches?

Are you talking about those wire winches with the brake bands? Those things are flat out dangerous; I would toss them out in any case, if I were you, whether or not I went to Dyneema halyards. If the brake releases too suddenly with a winch handle in, you've got a broken arm as likely as not. Ick.

We have wire halyards spliced to rope, with normal Lewmar winches on the mast, like sheet winches, only not self-tailing (unfortunately). I will be replacing them with Dyneema pretty soon, I hope this year. I don't have a problem obviously with the winches, but I do have a problem with the sheaves where the wire part of the halyard comes out of the mast near the masthead. I'm hoping it's a straight replacement with sheaves appropriate for rope but I haven't found the part yet. You will want to check that part of your system besides the winches.

[rustypirate]

Dockhead,
Thank you for making sure that everyone is aware of the dangers of wire winches with the friction brakes. I agree tha if you are not familliar with them they can be a hazard.

The sheaves in the mast head will obviously need to be replaced as well.

I am more interested in practical concerns with utilizing existing hardware that is already familliar, but with the updated technology.

Is there a requirement for changing out the winches other than the aforementioned safety issue?

[Steve Pope]

I have replaced wire with Dyneema on my main centreboard winch and on the rope blocks for the after one, been there 5 years now and no sign of wear or problems & no skin tearing sprags!! Alter your sheeves if you have to but check the existing groove as it may accomodate the dyneema satisfactorily.

[Weyalan]

When I purchased Insatiable, she had 3 wire halyards - 1 x main and 2 x headsail. All 2 were spliced wire to rope, so that the winches were standard rope winches. The major advantage for me (apart from not shredding one's hands on sprigs) is the significant weight savings aloft. I have gone to 7/16" Vectran for the main halyard and 3/8" Spectra for the headsail halyards. It is very important to replace the sheaves in the mast - they have a different profile for wire versus rope and also the wire tends to roughen the sheave which will chew through the cover on your rope quicksmart.

[hellosailor]

rusty, I would expect the main consideration to be the size of the winches, i.e. to make sure the dyneema is not being pulled around too tight a radius.

[roverhi]

The masthead sheaves are most probably wire/rope sheaves. This type of sheave has a groove sized for rope with a much smaller inner groove to fit wire. In almost all instances, they will work just fine with either wire or rope halyards. I've sailed way more than 10,000 open ocean miles using dacron outer core rope halyards with the original rope/wire sheaves without any sign of other than normal wear on the halyard. You should check the sheave to be sure that the wire hasn't raised any sharp protrusions on the sheave that could cause wear on the halyard, however. If there are any burrs, file and sand them reasonably smooth and you should be good to go.

Any winch should be a large enough diameter that it's not a problem for the exotic fiber halyards. FWIW these miracle fiber ropes are stronger than the wire of the same diameter. The dacron covered, exotic cored ropes are more than strong enough for halyards even in fairly small net diameters. 3/8" dacron covered/exotic cored ropes are more than adequate for the average sized boat. When you get to the boat size where you should be able to ignore the cost of maintenance, might need to go up a size or two from that.

If you've got a wire reel winch, the masthead sheave could be a wire only sheave and would have to replaced if you are using rope of a thicker diameter than the wire they are designed for. Agree that you should get rid of the reel halyard winch in any case. At one time, those winches accounted for most of the serious accidents on sailboats.

[Pete7]

With the mast down in January we took the opportunity to replace the wire/rope halyards. Whilst the rigger was busy with the standing rigging I had the chance to clean the mast. The sheaves showed no wear even after 22 years so we went ahead and replaced the main, genoa and storm jib forestay + halyards. No regrets.

We were offered two grades of Dyneema, chose the more expensive but less stretchy Dyneema for the storm job forestay to help reduce sag. Slightly cheaper Dyneema for the others on cost.

Pete

[rustypirate]

Thanks for all the replies.

At this time I am having to consider either going with rope and replacing the winches (with selftailers at a considerable cost), or staying with the wire winches.

The other benefit I could see with the wire winches would be not needing halyard bags for the rope ends on the sails aloft. All of the rope would be stored on the winch itself.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rustypirate

Thanks for all the replies.

At this time I am having to consider either going with rope and replacing the winches (with selftailers at a considerable cost), or staying with the wire winches.

The other benefit I could see with the wire winches would be not needing halyard bags for the rope ends on the sails aloft. All of the rope would be stored on the winch itself.

Well, you see benefits in the cheaper solution of not changing to modern rope winches. I can understand that of course, but you must also understand that any benefits you can come up with are invalid because these wire winches have taken off so many fingers and even hands that there is nothing good to say about them.

I think you should be able to find some good 2nd hand winches... I have seen plenty around places like Sailorman in Ft Lauderdale etc.

ciao!
Nick.

[Dockhead]

A bit of thread drift:

I am also planning to change wire halyards to Dyneema. Mine, however, are spliced to rope. My yankee halyard, for example, is 19 meters of 7mm stainless 7 x 19 cable spliced to 27 meters of 14mm double braid rope.

My question is this: do I need to maintain the 14mm size for the new unspliced Dyneema halyard? Obviously it will be easier to handle if it is 14mm, but 12mm is plenty strong enough, lighter, and cheaper. 46 meters is over 150 feet and 150 feet of 14mm Dyneema is heavy and very expensive.

Has anyone spliced two different sizes of Dyneema together in such a case? I could imagine even 10mm Dyneema in place of the 19 meters of wire, spliced to 27 meters of 14mm maybe even not Dyneema. It would save a lot of weight aloft and probably some money.

Or better do it 12mm the whole run without a splice?

Any thoughts?

[roverhi]

You have 9/32" wire on your halyards now so you should be able to replace that with a Dyneema, Spectra, Vectran core of similar diameter. Add a polyester outer braid and you are probably up to about 1/2"/12mm.

It is my understanding that the rigging shops strip the polyester outer braid off the working end of the halyard for a lighter weight line. They don't splice the line, just take off outer core and bind the remaining cored part to the exotic core where they strip it. That gives you an easy to hand larger diameter line where it's best for comfort and just the actual working core for the rest of the line. That is fine for racing boats but I'd want the outer braid all the way on a cruising boat for UV and abrasion protection.

Doubt that you'd need 14mm outer diameter line even for a boat your size. 1/2"/12mm is plenty easy on the hands for me and way easy to coil and secure on the mast.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by rustypirate

Dockhead,
Thank you for making sure that everyone is aware of the dangers of wire winches with the friction brakes. I agree tha if you are not familliar with them they can be a hazard.

The sheaves in the mast head will obviously need to be replaced as well.

I am more interested in practical concerns with utilizing existing hardware that is already familliar, but with the updated technology.

Is there a requirement for changing out the winches other than the aforementioned safety issue?

The sheaves will only need to be replaced if they have been chipped or burred by the wire. If not they'll be fine. Mine were built for wire and have done 4,000 miles since dumping the wire without problem. I still use the old wire winch for the main halyard.

I doubt that dyneema will fit inside your wire winch - assuming you have one of those enclosed ones with a brake. The diameter of the rope will simply be too large.

Why not make up fresh wire and keep the winch ? I like those winches because there is no halyard tail flopping around the deck. I agree that inexperienced crew shouldn't use them.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My question is this: do I need to maintain the 14mm size for the new unspliced Dyneema halyard? Obviously it will be easier to handle if it is 14mm, but 12mm is plenty strong enough, lighter, and cheaper. 46 meters is over 150 feet and 150 feet of 14mm Dyneema is heavy and very expensive.
Any thoughts?

Presumably the halyards lock off in those locking block things on the mast; which I have forgotten the name of. If they will take 12mm rope and securely hold it then go for it, I was never keen on wire. Also there are different types of Dyneema and naturally cost. Our rigger (Rotostay in Gosport) were honest enough to say we only needed a cruising spec for most halyards but worth paying the little bit extra for the spare forestay which would hold the storm jib so it can be winched bar tight to reduce sag.

Personal opinion but 12mm is easy enough to handle with bare hands. We use it in the diving club for 56lb shot weights which have to be hauled up manually.

Pete

[Kastrup]

hi pete
Is Rotostay still in trading ? I can't get in contact whit them

Lars