Quick one for StuM and other knot lovers

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Thanks Seaworthy Lass for the introduction. It is always great to learn something new everyday and be smarter for it.

A Zeppelin bend (a.k.a. Rosendahl bend) is a general-purpose bend knot. It is a secure, easily tied, and jam-resistant way to connect two ropes. Though its simplicity and security may be matched by other bends, it is unique in the ease with which it is untied, even after heavy loading, by pulling the opposing bridges away from each other.

Hey and the Zeppelin bend looks like it would work well for my boot laces as it will untie easier than my Great Granny.

There is a lot of science in knots, never new as I typically too often just make a jumble of it and revert to just a few known and tried types.

The Zeppelin is right up there with the bowline when it comes to the king of knots .

You may enjoy this thread:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ad-128727.html

The ease of untying is phenomenal - one hand was all that was needed when it was use after lengthening our snubber to holding our boat in near gale force winds.

SWL

[Montanan]

The image in the thumbnail of a bowline knot reminds me of a Montana Bowline which is made easily if you simply remember a story that goes along with the handling of the line.

So many moons ago, there was a mother grizzly bear and two cubs hibernating in a den when in from the winter cold a ferocious tailless bunny rabbit entered their den; being scared of the ferocious Hare, Momma Grizzly bear and her two cubs ran out of the den and headed towards a tree. The two cubs climbed up the tree while Momma Griz wandered around the tree standing guard of her two cubs. After a little time passed the Hare came out of the Grizzly Bears' den and spotted a tortoise and ran over to the tortoise to see if the tortoise would like to race to the store to buy some rope. Having seen that the ferocious Hare had gone away, Momma Griz gathered up her cubs and they returned to their den to continue hibernating until Spring arrived. The only thing one needs to pay attention to is the Mother Grizzly Bear and her movements.

Or at least that's how I recall the instructions for making a Montana Bowline, as told by a tribal elder on the Flathead Indian Reservation here at Polson, a.k.a. Tipi Poles Above the Water, in Montana.

Hey Seaworthy Lass, while watching a show on Netflix, I tried tying one end of a lace from each of of my two shoes together with the Zeppelin Bend. Guess what, just like you said it would, that knot held well under a shock load; I fell flat on my face when I tried to walk one step as the laces of shoe I remained standing on, securely held the lace of the shoe I tried to step forward with. And sure enough the knot easily came undone when I took my shoes off, but I still have a knot on my head from falling.

Also, thanks for being the moderator that welcomed me to the Cruisersforum back in 2014.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Juho, I struggled transforming the bowline only because I was pulling the tail on the wrong side initially. It was frustrating that it did not produce the same stopper. As you have written, the side it emerges is critical in transforming one knot to the other. Stu is right though, in a bowline the side is immaterial. Imagine a big loop where the tail is shorter than half the loop’s circumference. The tail does not fall on either side then. If you form a bowline using an overhand slip knot, the technique can be simplified for this reason.

I guess that's a good argument for saying that it is easier to transform he oysterman's stopper to a bowline than to do it in the reverse direction. You can say that in the reverse direction the probability of success is 50% while it is 100% in the original direction.

I'm now practicing to make bowlines as if I was making an oysterman's stopper but changing my plans at the last second and pulling the working end through the knot. (making an overhand slip knot using the standing end to form a small loop (that is pulled through the initial simple circle), then inserting the end of the (long enough to form the final loop) working end through that loop, and finally pulling it through the knot with a small tug from the standing end)

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Juho

I guess that's a good argument for saying that it is easier to transform he oysterman's stopper to a bowline than to do it in the reverse direction. You can say that in the reverse direction the probability of success is 50% while it is 100% in the original direction.

I'm now practicing to make bowlines as if I was making an oysterman's stopper but changing my plans at the last second and pulling the working end through the knot. (making an overhand slip knot using the standing end to form a small loop (that is pulled through the initial simple circle), then inserting the end of the (long enough to form the final loop) working end through that loop, and finally pulling it through the knot with a small tug from the standing end)

That is the “slip knot method” for tying a bowline. It is the method 44’cruisingcat referred to. There are lots of YouTubes showing how to do this.

I initially learned the Boy Scout technique where you embarrasingly think of rabbits coming out of holes and going around trees and this is so firmly ingrained in muscle memory that if it is an emergency and I need something faultless, I still fall back to this, otherwise I find starting with an overhand the quickest and smoothest way (this also allows a bowline to be tied around the body singlehanded so is useful to know).

A Greek merchant ship captain showed me a weird method he learned as a trainee decades ago from another seaman. I posted about this a few years ago. In the Netherlands yet another method was used that I only caught a glimpse of. It is intriguing how many ways a bowline can be formed.

SWL

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

That is the “slip knot method” for tying a bowline. It is the method 44’cruisingcat referred to. There are lots of YouTubes showing how to do this.

I initially learned the Boy Scout technique where you embarrasingly think of rabbits coming out of holes and going around trees and this is so firmly ingrained in muscle memory that if it is an emergency and I need something faultless, I still fall back to this, otherwise I find starting with an overhand the quickest and smoothest way (this also allows a bowline to be tied around the body singlehanded so is useful to know).

A Greek merchant ship captain showed me a weird method he learned as a trainee decades ago from another seaman. I posted about this a few years ago. In the Netherlands yet another method was used that I only caught a glimpse of. It is intriguing how many ways a bowline can be formed.

SWL

When you mention the overhand method as the quickest way, do you mean the overhand slip knot method, or maybe the method that ABOK seems to use? The leftmost image in ABOK #1010 description seems to start from an overhand knot (non slip) that is then transformed so that there is a loop (small circle) in the standing end. After that "the rabbit can return to the hole".

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Juho

When you mention the overhand method as the quickest way, do you mean the overhand slip knot method, or maybe the method that ABOK seems to use? The leftmost image in ABOK #1010 description seems to start from an overhand knot (non slip) that is then transformed so that there is a loop (small circle) in the standing end. After that "the rabbit can return to the hole".

I mean I think the method shown in ABOK #1010 is quickest.
The method can be done smoothly one handed. I wish that I had learned this first, as for me it feels the best. I hope as I continue to use it more it will become more ingrained.

My husband, on the other hand, prefers the slip knot method. Either technique seems much simpler than forming a loop before pushing the tail through.

SWL

[ImaginaryNumber]

Add me to the list of those whose preferred method of tying a bowline is by the slipknot method. It's the method my Dad taught me when I was a young whippersnapper. However, I'd never heard of the Ashley stopper knot, so I did learn something new from this thread.

[Montanan]

Slip knot method of making a bowline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmwKBA3XMR0

[Boatwright]

Another bowline variation:

I have always worried a bit when using bowlines for dinghy towing. as the surging in a following sea can tickle the working end and loosen the knot.

For our N. Channel cruise this year I've tried something new. Double the loop (foxhole) and bring the working end around and OUTSIDE the bight, "cowboy" style.

After 300 miles of cruising this knot has been totally secure, and only slightly harder to untie. I've seen the double loop and "cowboy" variations before but never the two together.

Any comments??

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Boatwright

Another bowline variation:

I have always worried a bit when using bowlines for dinghy towing. as the surging in a following sea can tickle the working end and loosen the knot.

For our N. Channel cruise this year I've tried something new. Double the loop (foxhole) and bring the working end around and OUTSIDE the bight, "cowboy" style.

After 300 miles of cruising this knot has been totally secure, and only slightly harder to untie. I've seen the double loop and "cowboy" variations before but never the two together.

Any comments??

One good approach for securing the bowline could be to use an additional knot to secure the working end (like in this video: https://youtu.be/BHbmbRgkdDU).

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Boatwright

Another bowline variation:

I have always worried a bit when using bowlines for dinghy towing. as the surging in a following sea can tickle the working end and loosen the knot.

For our N. Channel cruise this year I've tried something new. Double the loop (foxhole) and bring the working end around and OUTSIDE the bight, "cowboy" style.

After 300 miles of cruising this knot has been totally secure, and only slightly harder to untie. I've seen the double loop and "cowboy" variations before but never the two together.

Any comments??

Hi Boatwright
I’m glad you have found something that works. I learned the lesson the hard way when it comes to standard bowlines undoing when load is cyclical (it need not even be underwater).

Several modifications are known to improve a standard bowline with cyclical load:
-the double bowline (form two initial loops as you describe)
-the water bowline (form two initial loops and overlap these to form a clove hitch)
-bowline with a Yosemite finish (secure the tail a certain way)

The water bowline is said to be the best of these three. It is a bit slower to dress though. A CF member taught me the Yosemite finish a few years ago and I use it frequently.

I have not read that cowboy bowlines perform any better underwater or with cyclical load than standard ones. Load testing has shown that the strength of these is about the same (despite Ashley’s comments that the cowboy version is distinctly inferior), but that information does not necessarily tell the whole story.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Juho, I have been thinking about your comment regarding what finish of bowline is more “correct” - leaving the tail one side of the main loop, or the other. One thing I thought of was to check where the tail ends up when the bowline is loaded.

I tried a few types of ropes/cordage of different materials and diameters and interestingly in every instance the tail immediately flipped to the side that enables a rearrangement to an Oysterman’s stopper. The tail actually sticks out almost 90° on that side when significant load is applied.

So although the bowline does not need to be tied with consideration to this, if the tail is somehow not permitted to move to its correct side when load is applied, this may effect the bowline’s performance.

I have taken photos, but can’t upload any due to a weak internet signal. The easiest way of checking this is to use thin line where it is easy to tighten the knot well by hand. Using 12mm rope for the bowline, I needed to tighten it using a winch.

SWL

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Juho, I have been thinking about your comment regarding what finish of bowline is more “correct” - leaving the tail one side of the main loop, or the other. One thing I thought of was to check where the tail ends up when the bowline is loaded.

I tried a few types of ropes/cordage of different materials and diameters and interestingly in every instance the tail immediately flipped to the side that enables a rearrangement to an Oysterman’s stopper. The tail actually sticks out almost 90° on that side when significant load is applied.

So although the bowline does not need to be tied with consideration to this, if the tail is somehow not permitted to move to its correct side when load is applied, this may effect the bowline’s performance.

I have taken photos, but can’t upload any due to a weak internet signal. The easiest way of checking this is to use thin line where it is easy to tighten the knot well by hand. Using 12mm rope for the bowline, I needed to tighten it using a winch.

SWL

I agree. If we allow the bowline knot itself to decide, the transformable version is the correct and natural version, and the other one is a forced variant. Of course it is a matter of taste if we call these variants one and the same knot or two different knots (when the working end is short).

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Boatwright

Another bowline variation:

I have always worried a bit when using bowlines for dinghy towing. as the surging in a following sea can tickle the working end and loosen the knot.

For our N. Channel cruise this year I've tried something new. Double the loop (foxhole) and bring the working end around and OUTSIDE the bight, "cowboy" style.

After 300 miles of cruising this knot has been totally secure, and only slightly harder to untie. I've seen the double loop and "cowboy" variations before but never the two together.

Any comments??

In the climbing world, many people like to use a bowline for their tie-in, as it's much easier to untie compared to the more conservative figure-eight. A downside is that with the large number of variations available, it's hard for partners to be able to check the knot was tied correctly. Another is that some variations can have unexpected failure modes: here's an example of how the Yosemite finish can go wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI

Getting back to the "working loose" question, bowlines are generally considered "incomplete" for tying in when climbing unless a back-up knot has been added to secure the tail (or if the bowline-on-a-bight is used).


(I haven't encountered the "water bowline" before; that looks like an interesting one to use.)

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by requiem

In the climbing world, many people like to use a bowline for their tie-in, as it's much easier to untie compared to the more conservative figure-eight. A downside is that with the large number of variations available, it's hard for partners to be able to check the knot was tied correctly. Another is that some variations can have unexpected failure modes: here's an example of how the Yosemite finish can go wrong:

Getting back to the "working loose" question, bowlines are generally considered "incomplete" for tying in when climbing unless a back-up knot has been added to secure the tail (or if the bowline-on-a-bight is used).


(I haven't encountered the "water bowline" before; that looks like an interesting one to use.)

Thanks for that info.

I will watch the YouTube when I am able. I have read the Yosemite finish needs careful dressing. Unfortunately, not only do all the variations need this, but even the standard bowline. I have had an ordinary bowline collapse because a shock load had been applied when I had not dressed the salt encrusted line well.
The more complicated you make the bowline, the more care and time needs to be taken with dressing.

That is one reason I love the Zeppelin bend - it is one of the very rare knots that requires no dressing. Just yanking on the standing ends will tighen it up perfectly.

SWL