Pros and cons of cutter-rigged ketch?

[coastalexplorer]

Historically a Cutter was a narrow hulled vessel with a deeper draft rigged primarily for going to windward. and as already pointed out the mast was set closer to midships to allow for the addition of forward sail area.

A commander in the Canadian navy told us that the multiple foresails were only to be used in higher wind strengths. and indeed I recall a time on a 37 foot cutter rigged ketch we were trying to deliver when I changed the Genoa out too early and the boat lost some speed. My Australian friend at the helm became mildly annoyed but did not want the process reversed.

However my same friend and I experimented with multiple jibs on a 4 meter day boat where I surmise wind strength becomes more critical quicker than on larger craft. Our observation was that accumulated luff length draws the boat into the wind with more power. The boat had a 400lb righting moment and with with three people on the windward side weighing about 700lb. (Also loaded with equipment) carrying anchor + chain and outboard we had semi planning to windward with the lee rail under.

The stays were originally set up on the bow plate which was about five inches long. The upper fittings on the mast were four feet apart. eventually we fitted a stainless steel tube bowsprit to open up the slots between the sails which gave a huge advantage.

[zeehag]

before doing any mods to your boat think about htis...
previous owner thought he would benefit from this rig change.
others will give you misinformation.
i have ketch , love sailing it in reaL TIME AND wish I HAD INNER HEADSAIL RIGGING. I COULD HAVE USED THAT INSTEAD OF MY 150 REEFED VIA FURLER DURING A CHUBASCO OF 60+ KTS windspeed. (sorry bout caps i again have caplok and hate that feature...)
as long as you keep the rigging you can use the sail. once that rigging is gone you cannot easily do this. po prolly knew what he was doing to and with that boat. heed that. after you have sailed the boat a few years, then decide if you want to keep that feature or not. there IS a reason it exists. ps is not a cutter sail it is a forestaysail or inner headsail

[hobopacket]

After reading the above I tend to agree. Well said

[angelfish2]

What Zee said...

Once you make the change and the rigging is gone, it would be a pain to replace it. I certainly would get out there and play around with it before you make any changes.

I love the staysail on our boat. When it is trimmed right with the jib, we can gain at least 1/2 knot. Tacking is pretty easy and takes some finesse. The main trick is to carve a turn and not try to pivot. Let the jib fill just enough (not too much) so the clew is able to come around the inner forestay.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Dave Humphreys

A ketch by design gives a variety of sail options for a broad range of wind conditions. My Allied Princess II (deeper keel & Bow Sprite) is fitted with a removable 100% inner fore-stay. It has a large pelican-hook to connect under tension. This has proven to be useful in higher wind ranges. Jib and jigger in 25+ kts. with this inner fore-stay sail is comfortable and fast. No running back-stays. Other than high wind conditions the inner fore-stay is disconnected and kept on a side-stay to avoid problems tacking the Genoa which is roller furled on the Bow-Sprite fore-stay. Just an additional heavy air option enhancing the cruising capabilities of an already good cruising boat.

Agree completely. I own a Morgan 462 as does the OP. I added a detachable inner forestay with staysail. Upper attachment for this stay is near masthead. No running backs needed as they are a curse for singlehanding and in general on any cruising boat. The staysail remains hanked onto the stay in its bag and the the lower end of stay with its tensioning lever and the sail are moved aft and lashed to a shroud when not needed. I also have a storm jib that could replace the staysail if needed.

As a general comment, most roller furling genoas have poor shape when partially reefed for upwind work. So keep the staysail for that use but just make it detachable so it will out of the way when not in use.

[Davidhoy]

Thanks for all the great comments! You're not making my decision easier ;-).

[GTom]

Originally Posted by demacsea

I've sailed a cutter since 2001 and am convinced, for cruising, it beats a sloop hands down. A genoa will disrupt the airflow over the staysail - a high-cut yankee is the way to go.

Any problems with hang-ups during tacking can be avoided by getting rid of the bowlines. Instead, make a spliced eye in each jib and use a soft shackle to attach them to the headsail.

Take a look at Is The Cutter Rig Sailboat the Best Choice for Offshore Cruising?

Interesting reading! I couldn't omit the fact that most examples shown have a bowsprit, I just wonder how much an added bowsprit would mean e.g. for a heavy Rival 34.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by GTom

Interesting reading! I couldn't omit the fact that most examples shown have a bowsprit, I just wonder how much an added bowsprit would mean e.g. for a heavy Rival 34.

The idea of buying a boat expecting to make significant changes to her hull or rig is folly, especially for a newbie. Making such plans on the basis of advice garnered from a forum is folly. Believing that you, an inexperienced beginner are can make improvements on the design of a professional NA is folly.

Buy a boat that is already sailable as is. Sail the hell out of it for a year or more. At that time, you might have a chance of making "improvements" that might actually improve the boat for your usage.

And BTW, ain't no such thing as a "cutter rigged ketch". Plenty of ketches with two fore sails, though...

Jim

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And BTW, ain't no such thing as a "cutter rigged ketch". Plenty of ketches with two fore sails, though...

Jim

Yep, you are dead right.

Can we include?? In modern usage, a cutter can be either a small- or medium-sized vessel whose occupants exercise official authority. Examples are harbor pilots' cutters and cutters of the U.S. Coast Guard[4] or UK Border Force.

And not a sail in sight.

[jhulmer]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And BTW, ain't no such thing as a "cutter rigged ketch". Plenty of ketches with two fore sails, though...

Jim

Someone forgot to tell the Navel Architects.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=cutter...D3695E1AA695F0

I had to poke the bear.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by jhulmer

Someone forgot to tell the Navel Architects.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=cutter...D3695E1AA695F0

I had to poke the bear.

Just more people using incorrect terminology... I'm sure some searching will reveal other mis-used terms... why, just look at all the fun generated by the simple term "right of way"!

Jim