Pros Aloft Without A Safety Line

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Benz

It's enough clutter to go aloft on just one line, let alone to burden yourself with two. I have a dedicated line that I only use for going aloft, which my climbing kit fits nicely, and I know it's in good shape.
A professional who knows what he's doing will be far safer with less safety gear than a neophyte with tons of safety gear. It's not about familiarity breeding contempt--it's about being confident and competent enough to be safe. In the rockclimbing world, which has similar situations, though far more to the extremes, the best climbers get away with the least safety gear. That in turn clutters them up less so they can be better, lighter, faster. You learn to trust your gear, and learn what can be trusted singly and what needs redundancy. And in time, you get comfortable dangling 3000 feet above the ground on a single piece of 3/8 line.
It's mostly about practice and not obsessing while aloft about what your body will look like lying broken on the deck if this or that line or carabiner fails.

That theory is bs. Safety is recursive and risk is totally non discriminatory. It doesen't care how expert you are.

Try using your argument in court. You'll be labelled as either incompetent or negligent.

X being an unknown factor and a spurt being a drip under pressure.

[belizesailor]

I dont use a second line, which is a hassle for all the reasons already stated, but I do use a tether on my harness and clip in, or use strop hitch around the mast, as I ascend/descend. At the very least it will limit my fall.

I also like the fact that I am in control of this saftey mechamism not someone down on the deck...who is assumed to actually be competent and paying attention. Often in remote locations, with limited skilled people available, neither of those assumptions may be valid.

Replaced all standing rigging last year, so spent a lot of time aloft with this set up. Now, after a couple of months of sailing, its about time to go back up for an inspection.

[Cheechako]

Too much clutter makes it less safe at times. Getting caught on things and forcing you to do antics you normally would not do. A rigger is using your halyard, but he should inspect it first.
I usually compromised. Single halyard, but a safety tether/harness I looped around the mast once above the spreaders. Up top I would clip the safety tether to something.

[robert sailor]

While I personally use a safety line when going aloft my experience is similar in that by and large riggers don't bother with it. I guess the question is when was the last time you had a halyard break? I've done a ton of sailing over the years and I've never broken a halyard and why would you if you maintained your boat. What's a hundred plus pounds (European rigger) on a halyard designed to take several thousand pounds. I have heard of safety straps breaking when a sailor was tossed from one side of the deck to the other...how many of you wear 2 of those. I guess I don't think it's as big a deal as many are making it, probably very low risk.

[Lihuedooley77]

Probably comes down to following your own personal safety procedures and instincts and experience.

going aloft is no big deal here, but we do use a safety line, and like the idea of an additional line.

I am usually the lightest weight person, so the beasts handle the line and winch. Never had a problem, but do not want one, either.

many of those who go up the mast, have their own personal procedures that they are familiar with.

Works for them. But, I would not want a rigger to go up my mast to fix a problem with no safety back up of any kind. He plumets to his death, or is severely injured, maybe for life, bet you might just be getting a visit from a lawyer .

Regardless, everyone, stay safe.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The second line is a PITA because you need a third person to manage it. I can well imagine that this is the main reason the pros don't use it. Cost and manpower issue.

It's a problem for me, too. There are often times when I want to go aloft but don't have enough people.

I've been thinking about using a Prussik on a static halyard for the safety line, so that I can go up with a single helper. Or perhaps ascenders and descenders or some such climbing hardware would work for that.

Going aloft scares me. It's thrilling in its own way, but I have to admit that it frightens me. I need to work on my technique I think, and I need some kind of foot loops to get up above the masthead level.

Men who fall from that height are generally powerless due to paralysis. This is hubristic in the extreme for a so-called "professional", as it assumes that gravity works differently, or that mistakes or failures won't happen to the "pro". Which is logical garbage.

[Davidhoy]

When I was young and stupid (now I'm just older and stupid), I thought myself invincible. I was sailing a 80ft maxi from St Thomas to Fort Lauderdale, and a halyard got tangled high up the forestay. It was getting dark, and I literally just climbed the mast, no lines at all, untangled the halyard, and slid down the main back to the deck. The skipper proceeded to ream me a new one, and rightly so.

Another time, I'd just finished the Swan Rolex Regatta sailing with Harold Cudmore on Yellowdrama. At the awards ceremony there were a bunch of balloons up in the roof of the huge tent. Some girls wanted balloons, so what is a young and stupid foredeck guy to do but climb up the side poles, then hand over hand up to the top and prove what a macho fool he is?

Yes, we all do stupid things at times. Not defending it - just like your rigging pros I could have killed myself.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been thinking about using a Prussik on a static halyard for the safety line, so that I can go up with a single helper. Or perhaps ascenders and descenders or some such climbing hardware would work for that.

I've used ascenders and they work quite well. It is hard to get friends to haul my expanding behind up the mast and the ascenders eliminate the need for that.

[hamburking]

When I was younger I sailed a (small) type of tall ship called a brigantine. It had squares on the foremast. The "crew" were required to wear harnesses aloft, but the staff (like me) were not.

We relished in our freedom of no dorky harness. We free climbed aloft many times per day...doing any number of necessary tasks high above the deck. Most of this was while underway, sailing, waves and wind. We thought nothing of it. It was no different than going forward or below.

Because we were constantly climbing, our upper body strength and especially our grip strength was incredible. If I had one hand on something, I would not fall, my grip strength assured me of that.

If the ensign (canadian flag) got tangled in the peak halyard after a gybe, I would zoom up the main mast and out to the end of the gaff. One hand for me, and the other freeing the ensign. Below, the other officers would be whaling on the main boom, trying to shake me off...in vain. It was all in good fun. Sometimes we would have races to the top of the mast and back down, sliding on a stay in the traditional manner back down to the deck. A 15 second sprint. I recall having a contest with another officer...up the main shrouds to the spreaders and back down again, hands only. We went up and down and most of the way up again before we got tired, laughing our heads off as we swung to the ratlines for a rest.

Now I tremble thinking of the stunts I/we pulled up there.

Rest assured, the rules have changed and everyone wears a harness aloft on that training ship now. Do they clip on? I dunno. You'd have to ask my daughter, since she followed in my footsteps and was a watch officer aboard a similar ship for the last few years.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Why is it that exactly zero (according to my observations, at least) of professional riggers use a safety line when going aloft?

Are they just crazy, or what?

Last time a pro was aloft on my boat, he just used a bosun's chair -- no harness. Went up on a single spare main halyard which his assistant ran through a deck turning block back to the electric mainsheet winch in the cockpit. For some reason, this guy didn't put the line on the self tailer, but he did use the clutch.

That's 23 meters up -- like being on the roof of a seven story building.

Is this the usual practice, and why?

It’s a matter of pucker factor. I have no issue climbing to first spreader on shorter masts with no gear at all.

Using a bosuns chair with no safety line is akin to climbing a ladder that is not tied off at top.

Both are recommended, but sometimes impractical.

Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances.

For many years skyscraper steel workers danced atop tall structures with no safety gear at all. Some died, the good ones (obviously) didn’t.

Like a friend of mine whose Dad was a commercial fisherman and never learned to swim a stroke. When I questioned the safety, he grinned and replied, “All the more reason to stay in the boat.” He died a ripe old age of natural causes.

That said, I officially recommend everyone use a safety line when going aloft.

[Rapanui]

I have 2 approaches when going aloft. One is a fixed second halyard and a Petzel ascender on a strop to the harness for safety and hoist normally using a bosun chair. The other safety method is to take 11/2 turns round the mast with a life harness tether clipping both ends to the climbing harness. If you drop, the tether jams on the mast and you hang there looking stupid. The downside is you have to unclip the tether to negotiate spreaders which is a risk.
Both methods require only one person below winching

[rmlarson1098]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Why is it that exactly zero (according to my observations, at least) of professional riggers use a safety line when going aloft?

Are they just crazy, or what?

Last time a pro was aloft on my boat, he just used a bosun's chair -- no harness. Went up on a single spare main halyard which his assistant ran through a deck turning block back to the electric mainsheet winch in the cockpit. For some reason, this guy didn't put the line on the self tailer, but he did use the clutch.

That's 23 meters up -- like being on the roof of a seven story building.

Is this the usual practice, and why?

Crazy? Most likely not. What they are is arrogant, reckless, and perfect examples of the 'can't happen to me' idiocy.
Working as a ironworker all my life (high rigger/welder) I've seen lot's of hotshots fall, many of them to their death. Fallen myself. NO ONE should fall if they believe life is a gift. The bull*hit about getting around more freely with less clutter is the bosses talking - they want the job done quickly and efficiently and are willing to risk (their employees) lives to make it happen. Tie off! Remember Murphy's Law? What if you don't die in the fall? How about the good chance that you'll be a paraplegic (quadraplegic) for the rest of your miserable life? I'm a skydiver. Would any jumper in their right mind parachute without a spare chute, because it adds more 'clutter' to their rig? And to compare riggers in a boatyard to rock climbers is stupid. If a 'professional' rigger goes aloft on my boat without using EVERY possible safety system aloft, they are done. Off my vessel! Anybody that works more than 6 feet off the deck/ground without tying off is a fool. And if they're killed because of their recklessness, as far as I'm concerned it's just thinning the herd. Think it through, take it slow & easy, and tie off. To an independent lifeline!

[TernEggs]

Originally Posted by rmlarson1098

The bull*hit about getting around more freely with less clutter is the bosses talking - they want the job done quickly and efficiently and are willing to risk (their employees) lives to make it happen.

100% agree. The whole macho hotshot thing is a part of workplace culture perpetuated by bosses exploiting their employees.

There was a scandal here a while back with a cell network builder, who was hiring young impressionable kids and telling them that they didn't need safety gear to climb up cell towers to do maintenance. It took two or three of them falling and getting badly hurt before the company got shamed into instituting proper safety procedures.

If I guy is telling you "you're a pro, you don't need a harness," then you should seriously consider whether he is just manipulating you to maximize his profits.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by hamburking

We relished in our freedom of no dorky harness. We free climbed aloft many times per day...doing any number of necessary tasks high above the deck. Most of this was while underway, sailing, waves and wind. We thought nothing of it. It was no different than going forward or below.

Because we were constantly climbing, our upper body strength and especially our grip strength was incredible. If I had one hand on something, I would not fall, my grip strength assured me of that.

Watch this and see the competency of the crew and especially the young children!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKS-bGcoZW4

[tiopirata]

I may well be that daredevil rigger some of you take to task here. That said, I trust my knots and my powers of observation. Most halyards easily hold many times my weight and my apprentice knows how to use a winch. One line is usually enough, and on those occasions when it's not I don't ascend. 30 years later no problems. I also had zero problems as a tree feller before that, but then I don't make decisions based on irrational fear.