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Old 02-08-2014, 18:37   #46
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Those are good points, I guess I was pointing out the similarities but being too vague earlier; I noticed that each of those three knots (taught,blake,estar) utilize a clove hitch/half hitch to compress the line running between it-- rather ingenious idea I think. Perhaps many knots do, but these sort of stuck out to me. Also the blake makes use of a passed through tail perpendicular to the hitches so they cinches down on it, similar to estar. Really a great knot, estar/xx!

I noticed someone mentioned the zeppelin bend, I think that knot is great and now I've been fiddling around trying to get something between that and these knots, what with the multiple cinching half hitches idea.
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Old 02-08-2014, 21:59   #47
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

> taught

Taut - as in "pulled tight".
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Old 02-08-2014, 22:55   #48
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^

Interesting. I have been quite focused on dyneema, but have been curious how my results would translate to vectran. It's not slippery (like dyneema) so would not have the knot slipping problems. I have never seen any data on whether it is more or less bend radius sensitive than dyneema - do you know? I am guessing even slightly more bend radius sensitive since it is slightly higher modulus.
Unfortunately no data sheet around so don't know about D/d. The few destruction tests done it went either at the splice or knot. This particular stuff might be even more sensitive as it has a core to help it keep it's shape on the grooved drum. We were using 5/8" Crosby bows.
Synthetic is amazing stuff though, commissioning the winches if you get the tuning wrong it can lock up at 20Km/h, 300Kg carries on about 6 feet upwards, then back down again.... Enough to fracture bearings but the 6mm rope holds. Incredible material.
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Old 04-08-2019, 06:08   #49
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Old thread, I know, but it's better to keep it here than start a new one.

SWL and Evans, I'm looking to tie either the Estar hitch or the Estar-xx with dynamic climbing rope to snap shackles for fixed mount tethers. I had the same confusion as SWL regarding the Grogs animation of the Estar hitch, in that it's not really a buntline hitch. It doesn't help that you can't see the other side of the knot in the animation either. When I tie it, it seems awkward. I found SWLs Estar-xx (is it also a bull hitch? I read the entire Knot guild thread..) to be much easier to tie and seems to lay down/be more symmetrical than the Estar. DCR is tricky to tie and as far as I know unspliceable so I'm having to tie the hitch and then whip/sew the tail end to the standing part for extra security.

I'm following John Harries of Morgan's Cloud on jackline and tether construction. See here (https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/02...d-hardware/)He points to the Grog site for the Estar hitch. So I'm here, at this crossroads. Should I just tie the Estar and get over the fact it "feels" awkward or should I use the Estar-xx? Either way the tail will be sewn down.

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Old 04-08-2019, 06:43   #50
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
Old thread, I know, but it's better to keep it here than start a new one.

SWL and Evans, I'm looking to tie either the Estar hitch or the Estar-xx with dynamic climbing rope to snap shackles for fixed mount tethers. I had the same confusion as SWL regarding the Grogs animation of the Estar hitch, in that it's not really a buntline hitch. It doesn't help that you can't see the other side of the knot in the animation either. When I tie it, it seems awkward. I found SWLs Estar-xx (is it also a bull hitch? I read the entire Knot guild thread..) to be much easier to tie and seems to lay down/be more symmetrical than the Estar. DCR is tricky to tie and as far as I know unspliceable so I'm having to tie the hitch and then whip/sew the tail end to the standing part for extra security.

I'm following John Harries of Morgan's Cloud on jackline and tether construction. See here (https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/02...d-hardware/)He points to the Grog site for the Estar hitch. So I'm here, at this crossroads. Should I just tie the Estar and get over the fact it "feels" awkward or should I use the Estar-xx? Either way the tail will be sewn down.

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Hi SailRedemption

The Estar Hitch depicted in Grog is the way Evans developed and tested it. I thought at first Grog had made a mistake, but it was also shown this way in Evan’s pdf of instructions that was on his website.

As you point out though, it is not actually based on a Buntline Hitch. Nearly, but no cigar . When actually tying it based on a Buntline (what I called an Estar-xx) it is a distinctly different knot.

Note: Confusingly, the Estar stopper is based on a Buntline.

This was Evans’ response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Regarding the EStar specifically . . . . I tested 4 different variations, including the one you present here. There was no statistical difference in their strength.

............

So, net net, tie whichever variation you prefer. The performance differences between them will be nil. I presented the specific variation I did because I have some significant real world experience with it (I have a french rigger friend who has tested it out on a couple very high performance boats) and so I know for a fact it works, not just on my test bench but also the ‘real world’.

I think there will be a difference in strength when pin diameter is increased, but that is just my theory.

To all the newcomers to this thread, this is how the two hitches look from one side. Estar is on the left and Estar-xx on the right:
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Old 04-08-2019, 06:46   #51
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

And this is the other side.

Estar is again on the left and Estar-xx is on the right.

The two hitches are distinctly different.
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Old 04-08-2019, 07:07   #52
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
I'm looking to tie either the Estar hitch or the Estar-xx with dynamic climbing rope to snap shackles for fixed mount tethers.
Jfyi - the estar was very specifically designed to solve a problem with bare dyneema - provide a way, which would not slip, to tie on deck, a shackle onto a bare Dyneema halyard tip. The Vendee and Volvo guys had been trying buntlines with various stoppers but they either slipped or were clumsy or (mostly) both.

This was a pretty special purpose, as generally these connections should be spliced in Dyneema, and in other line (like your dynamic climbing line) the normal knots work just fine.

So, there is no harm to using the estar or variations, but no real benefit to it either.

As to strength - I would suggest differences between the estar variations would be minimal. Personally, for your application, if I wanted to use something fancier than a simple buntline (which I think would be totally acceptable) then I would use a Palomar. - it has a good test history - is strong and reliable.
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Old 06-08-2019, 23:25   #53
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Hi SailRedemption



The Estar Hitch depicted in Grog is the way Evans developed and tested it. I thought at first Grog had made a mistake, but it was also shown this way in Evan’s pdf of instructions that was on his website.



As you point out though, it is not actually based on a Buntline Hitch. Nearly, but no cigar . When actually tying it based on a Buntline (what I called an Estar-xx) it is a distinctly different knot.



Note: Confusingly, the Estar stopper is based on a Buntline.



This was Evans’ response:









I think there will be a difference in strength when pin diameter is increased, but that is just my theory.



To all the newcomers to this thread, this is how the two hitches look from one side. Estar is on the left and Estar-xx on the right:
Thanks for the reply and information. I may just do a pull test on both and see how they react. Or just tie a Estar and get over it
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Old 06-08-2019, 23:26   #54
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Thanks for the info and the link to the Palomar. I'll check it out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
Jfyi - the estar was very specifically designed to solve a problem with bare dyneema - provide a way, which would not slip, to tie on deck, a shackle onto a bare Dyneema halyard tip. The Vendee and Volvo guys had been trying buntlines with various stoppers but they either slipped or were clumsy or (mostly) both.

This was a pretty special purpose, as generally these connections should be spliced in Dyneema, and in other line (like your dynamic climbing line) the normal knots work just fine.

So, there is no harm to using the estar or variations, but no real benefit to it either.

As to strength - I would suggest differences between the estar variations would be minimal. Personally, for your application, if I wanted to use something fancier than a simple buntline (which I think would be totally acceptable) then I would use a Palomar. - it has a good test history - is strong and reliable.
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Old 07-08-2019, 00:48   #55
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Re: Presenting a New Hitch : the EStar-XX (based on EStar Hitch)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
Jfyi - the estar was very specifically designed to solve a problem with bare dyneema - provide a way, which would not slip, to tie on deck, a shackle onto a bare Dyneema halyard tip. The Vendee and Volvo guys had been trying buntlines with various stoppers but they either slipped or were clumsy or (mostly) both.

This was a pretty special purpose, as generally these connections should be spliced in Dyneema, and in other line (like your dynamic climbing line) the normal knots work just fine.

So, there is no harm to using the estar or variations, but no real benefit to it either.

As to strength - I would suggest differences between the estar variations would be minimal.
Hi Breaking Waves

The EStar and EStar-XX may have the same breaking strength with certain pin diameters, but they are distinctly different hitches.

The description used by Grog for the EStar is simply incorrect:
The knot starts by tying a Buntline Hitch
https://www.animatedknots.com/buntline-hitch-knot

The EStar hitch does NOT start by tying a Buntline hitch.

SWL

PS Confusingly, the EStar stopper does start with a Buntline hitch
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