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View Poll Results: Poll Cruisers.... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker or Other?
Code 0 4 17.39%
Asymmetrical Spinnaker 17 73.91%
Other 2 8.70%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14-12-2020, 09:31   #1
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Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

Members, I'm attempting to decide on downwind (Tradewind sailing) options. I'm leaning towards a furled Code 0 as Kokopelli within this video vers asymmetrical spinnaker. Would you please send feedback...and what your using and why. Thanks heaps! Don

I have an older Aysmmetrical which is furled on a top down. I'm not a fan of the top down for 3 reasons. 1. Not easy to put away. 2. It does not have sunbrella leach/foot for protection when stowed. 3. If new and had a sock, I would have to make room for in the boat.

I have spoke to owner of Kokopelli and he indicates, his decission to install Code 0 as is.....was one of the best decission he has ever made on the boat. Quite a statement. Brian's passage, Florida, Panama, S.Pacific, Hawaii.

A tad contrary to this...local loft indicates (nitpicking) with the extra furler, forstay, and sail, he as an issue with weight aloft, i.e. rolling, tender ect.

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Old 14-12-2020, 10:44   #2
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

If I had to make one choice, it would have been code 0 but more of a gennaker and the variations. Code 0, has basically the same pros/cons as an asymmetrical - for the cruiser, so to be practical and if only one option is to be considered it would be a gennaker using the original forestay furler.

If you like and can afford an additional downwind sail, I would go with a top down asymmetrical on a bowsprit and add a lifting, light UV sleeve - that's an easy and inexpensive solution. - As you already have that, why not just add the UV sleeve?

And as you can see in the video, they also wisely use the cutter sail which I use a lot and very happy with the versatility it offers me at almost all conditions.
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Old 14-12-2020, 11:36   #3
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

For the Hylas, you'd be better broad reaching down wind so would also say an asym. or possibly a poled out symmetrical.

If it were a different boat that handles better DDW, may have said "other" or twin head sails.
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Old 14-12-2020, 11:40   #4
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeValency View Post
If I had to make one choice, it would have been code 0 but more of a gennaker and the variations. Code 0, has basically the same pros/cons as an asymmetrical - for the cruiser, so to be practical and if only one option is to be considered it would be a gennaker using the original forestay furler.

If you like and can afford an additional downwind sail, I would go with a top down asymmetrical on a bowsprit and add a lifting, light UV sleeve - that's an easy and inexpensive solution. - As you already have that, why not just add the UV sleeve?

And as you can see in the video, they also wisely use the cutter sail which I use a lot and very happy with the versatility it offers me at almost all conditions.
DeValency....thanks heapsf or your input! Having said that, I'll have to research the gennaker as you suggest. My thinking, well firstly, all sails will be replaced. I'm sure sails are original to the boat (2000) except for the asymmetrical.

For the forstay, 120, 9.5 radial cut. (I'm working on sail material). Reef that sail to conditions untill it's gone, where I'll fall back to the 10oz staysail to storm reefed conditions if need be.

My asymmetrical....somewhat tired. So, need either new asymmetrical or Code 0 & furled. Decisions, decisions. Of couse as you suggest....acquire UV protection for new asymmetrial &b keep my top down.

Downwind:
I'm thinking, wing and wind with code 0 and headsail. Pole out the Code 0 and use main boom (main furled) to pole out the headsail or vice vers with the poles.

Thanks
Don

Just trying to get a census on how many cruisers are using a Code 0 vers Asymmetrical.
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Old 14-12-2020, 11:53   #5
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O View Post
For the Hylas, you'd be better broad reaching down wind so would also say an asym. or possibly a poled out symmetrical.

If it were a different boat that handles better DDW, may have said "other" or twin head sails.
Bill....that's interesting regarding the Hylas. I have (many times) sailed wing and wing (main & forsail) but, only in pretty mild conditiong with great results. Now, tradewind sailing (following seas) is another. Having said that, I am in contact with Kolopelli ( above video) and inturn will seek his results with wing and wing (code 0 & headsail) using his Hylas 46.

Curious....regarding if Hylas handles better DDW? Please elaborate? Thanks Don
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Old 14-12-2020, 12:22   #6
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

Drifter and whisker pole.
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Old 14-12-2020, 15:01   #7
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept-windy View Post
Bill....that's interesting regarding the Hylas. I have (many times) sailed wing and wing (main & forsail) but, only in pretty mild conditiong with great results. Now, tradewind sailing (following seas) is another. Having said that, I am in contact with Kolopelli ( above video) and inturn will seek his results with wing and wing (code 0 & headsail) using his Hylas 46.

Curious....regarding if Hylas handles better DDW? Please elaborate? Thanks Don
Don, we helped deliver a H56 that was set up for ocean racing and the owner agreed that DDW was the worst point of sail for that boat. As w/many boats, broad reaching was much more stable and faster.

Would be interesting to hear what Kolopelli says re: how the H46 handles using 2 head sails at once in rigorous conditions.
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Old 14-12-2020, 15:25   #8
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept-windy View Post
Bill....that's interesting regarding the Hylas. I have (many times) sailed wing and wing (main & forsail) but, only in pretty mild conditiong with great results. Now, tradewind sailing (following seas) is another. Having said that, I am in contact with Kolopelli ( above video) and inturn will seek his results with wing and wing (code 0 & headsail) using his Hylas 46.

Curious....regarding if Hylas handles better DDW? Please elaborate? Thanks Don
I think most medium displacement cruisers may be difficult in handling a DDW course. Yes, broad reach is nicer and faster but if you really need to get to a DDW point - think of heading northwest from the Caribbean, or from Cape Verde to the Caribbean etc... can be the slow course.

Our experience and discussed it also with a friend with a Bavaria 44 who crosses the Atlantic almost every year, is to forget the main (or reef it to the very minimum and keep it in) and hoist every headsail available (in light breeze) and less as it blows up. It worked better for us, with our 14 metric tons and a lot of relative aft weight, but surprisingly, also worked well with the Bavaria.

Books were written on DDW tactics and many factors are plying, but that's maybe for another thread (over the many discussed that too)
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Old 14-12-2020, 23:14   #9
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O View Post
Don, we helped deliver a H56 that was set up for ocean racing and the owner agreed that DDW was the worst point of sail for that boat. As w/many boats, broad reaching was much more stable and faster.

Would be interesting to hear what Kolopelli says re: how the H46 handles using 2 head sails at once in rigorous conditions.
Bill, thanks for the input. Interesting to say the least. Yes, regarding the broad reaching. I did the same with a 41' back in 85 across the Indian bound for Perth W. Australia. At that time though, I was more on a shoe string and did not have the right sail set up. I remember tacking every Sunday (afer lunch)!! America's Cup! Go Dennis....in which he did!

I will report Kolopelli's technique. I would imagine once it pipes up....he would be able (which I would also like to know) if he continued DDW, via reefing both headsails?

Having said that....I see the Amel 53, namely Delos, has a nice technique (double whisker poles) double head sails. Thanks heaps!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeValency View Post
I think most medium displacement cruisers may be difficult in handling a DDW course. Yes, broad reach is nicer and faster but if you really need to get to a DDW point - think of heading northwest from the Caribbean, or from Cape Verde to the Caribbean etc... can be the slow course.

Hello DeValency, I can do slow, LOL...as long as I have Corona, Needless to say, comfortable is the name of the game and paramount.

Our experience and discussed it also with a friend with a Bavaria 44 who crosses the Atlantic almost every year, is to forget the main (or reef it to the very minimum and keep it in) and hoist every headsail available (in light breeze) and less as it blows up. It worked better for us, with our 14 metric tons and a lot of relative aft weight, but surprisingly, also worked well with the Bavaria.

Was the above DDW or B/reach?

Books were written on DDW tactics and many factors are plying, but that's maybe for another thread (over the many discussed that too)
I'll look for DDW tactics!

Thanks Don
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Old 14-12-2020, 23:30   #10
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

We use an assy a fair amount. In light air broad reaching it's possible to pull the apparent forward 30~50 degrees. In heavier breeze we'll pole out a jib, prevent the main and sail deep. I would like a code but feel it's range would be to limited for the space and costs. I'm not racing anymore.
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Old 14-12-2020, 23:46   #11
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

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We use an assy a fair amount. In light air broad reaching it's possible to pull the apparent forward 30~50 degrees. In heavier breeze we'll pole out a jib, prevent the main and sail deep. I would like a code but feel it's range would be to limited for the space and costs. I'm not racing anymore.
Hi...and thanks for the reply....here is what I'm sort of driving at...

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Old 15-12-2020, 01:06   #12
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

A code is just a large jib, you can't sail deep with it because there is no projection or rotation. You need a sail with a free luff if you want to sail deep.
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Old 15-12-2020, 07:18   #13
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

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A code is just a large jib, you can't sail deep with it because there is no projection or rotation. You need a sail with a free luff if you want to sail deep.
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Old 15-12-2020, 07:39   #14
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

For real DDW tradewind work, we have found this rig to be exceptional:



Fully described HERE

It is easy to set up, fully reefable, and on our boat, significantly faster than broad reaching to a DDW destination at any true wind speed between 8 and 20 knots. Works up to an AWA of ~160 or so.

Many larger, short-handed, cruising boats furl their big downwind sails at night in the trades so they don't have to deal with 1000 sq feet of nylon with a rapidly approaching squall at 02:00. Since we can instantly reef down the two sails, we just press right on with all our sail up all night, roll them up if needed, and quickly unroll when the blow passes.

Not for every boat, obviously, but it works very well for us.
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Old 15-12-2020, 09:40   #15
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Re: Poll Cruisers... Code 0 or Asymmetrical Spinnaker

I use both. The code zero is on a furler. On my boat it's for building apparent wind in light air and trying to get some VMG to weather. It close/beam reaches nicely. This seems like a narrow range to buy a specific sail for, but when you need to keep moving in really light air on a long offshore leg it's a lot better than trying to get the genoa to inflate and draw. When the wind is aft of the beam I use an A2 on a furler. It's kind of a general-purpose asym shape. My best VMG angle downwind is about 160-ish, so I tack downwind. When the wind pipes up I'll go almost DDW with it if I can maintain seven knots. After that I roll it up and pole out the genoa, which can be rolled in to project less area. I have a carbon sprit. The extra projection makes a difference on my boat. Hope this helps.
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