Ordering new Genoa.

[TOM]

I want to order a new Genoa for our 40 ft boat off Lee Sails . We currently have a 150% genoa with a 24 ft {7.35m} Foot . The sail is far too big for us and i want to reduce it to 120%. My question is do i just reduce the lenght of the foot or is there anything else i have to do.
Many Thanks.

[Jim Cate]

Tom, this is why one should utilize a local sail maker rather than ordering one off the net. The local guy will come to your boat, measure it, then discuss with you your own style of sailing, your cruising/racing plans, your budget, and then make recommendations as to size, cut, material and weight.

Saving a buck is great, but IMO until you have enough experience so that you don't have to ask the question you did, face to face with the sailmaker is worth the extra money.

Cheers,

Jim

[barnakiel]

I noticed nearly any sailmaker does a good job if you give them luff max plus the % you want (and the type of the boat you have).

The problem is, should any adjustment be required (as it may with new sails) then a local sailmaker will be able to fix the issue on the spot, at no (or marginal) cost.

b.

[Bash]

The answer to your question depends on your rig, especially on how your fairleads are organized. If your fairlead tracks are short, adjusting the height of the clew can easily accomodate appropriate sheeting angles. Having a sailmaker come to your boat to do the measurements is key to getting the sail right. Ordering inexpensive mail-order sails is always a gamble.

[henryk]

In April we bought a Corbin 39 with almost brand new sails that were done by 'Fare east' sail in Hong kong . What a piece of crap! The sail bag done so poorly, exposed zipper, deteriorating after one year in the Caribbean sun, the piece that goes around the mast it's integral part of the sail and a bitch to deal with when reefing. When we were 80 miles south of St Martin ,at night, the genoa went flying like a maple leaf on Canada Day. The stainless clew ring where you attach the sheets basted, it was way under sized. We turned back and sailed to St Martin where the sail maker was just shaking his head when i took in for repairs. It was blowing 25 knots, pitch dark and me on the bow, up and down in the swell trying to dose it. I had never seen my wife so scared. Get yourself a piece of junk like that and that might be your last trip.

[gjordan]

My first 2 boats had Lucas sails from England. They served me very well. On my third boat , when I needed a new main I ordered from Lucas and was very satisfied with the sail. On my first cruising boat I ordered a Lee self standing roller jib, and it was tough as nails, and set well. I dont know what the exchange rate is now, but you might consider Lucas. Having a sailmaker or somebody very knowledgable help you measure before you order is a good idea._____Grant.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I noticed nearly any sailmaker does a good job if you give them luff max plus the % you want (and the type of the boat you have).

The problem is, should any adjustment be required (as it may with new sails) then a local sailmaker will be able to fix the issue on the spot, at no (or marginal) cost.

b.

Really???
So you give me max luff and an LP.
How the heck would I calculate your sheeting angles? Unless the boat is a closely controlled one design, the rig has to be measured.

I've looked at the measurement worksheets from those discount lofts that sell direct and for the most part, they don't gather anywhere near enough information to properly design a sail. So I'm not surprised when I see poorly fitting sails from those lofts. Nor am I surprised by the miniscule patches, inadequate reinforcements, undersized leechlines, hardware selection, etc.

There's a series of measurements I have our customers take or take myself if it's a local boat.

From as close to the sheave as possible, we measure to the deck/forestay intersection, mast base, capshroud/deck intersection, fore and aft end of tracks. Then we measure to those same points from the deck forestay intersection. So we're locating them vertically and laterally. Then using the water as a reference plane, we take some sheer measurements to calculate the height difference between the tack and track. There's some details collected about the furler itself, tackback, feeder height etc. Only then can we accomplish a proper design that will fit beautifully.

The bitterness of poor quality outlasts the sweetness of a cheap price.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Really???
So you give me max luff and an LP.
How the heck would I calculate your sheeting angles? Unless the boat is a closely controlled one design, the rig has to be measured.
(...)

Yes. Really.

Boats built in series have set spreader bases, track positions, etc. Sailmakers have databases.

All our sailmaker asked for was how long our bowsprit is (typically our design comes without the bowsprit) and what furling gear we have. The sail came perfect, no need to make any adjustments.

I have seen a couple of sails built offshore and none required mods. Craftsmanship was also very good.

If the boat is a one-off and her rig dimensions are not given in her plans, then you are correct that a sail that overlaps spreaders is best built by a sailmaker who comes to the boat and takes measure.

b.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yes. Really.

Boats built in series have set spreader bases, track positions, etc. Sailmakers have databases.

All our sailmaker asked for was how long our bowsprit is (typically our design comes without the bowsprit) and what furling gear we have. The sail came perfect, no need to make any adjustments.


b.

Barnakiel,

Baloney. How many years have you spent in sailmaking and how many rigs have you measured? Hell I measured an Islander 36 not long ago and it had a mast that didn't match any other Islander 36 and we're talking close to a foot off. And that boat is in a one design fleet. (Shhhh). Had I just used dimensions from 9 other I-36's that sail would not have come close to fitting.

I don't know any sailmaker in the business that would trust an old manufacturer sailplan. Database? You talking about the one we all use that gives I, J, P, and E? We use that for pricing, not for designing. At least that's what real sailmakers do. If there's some magic database that has everything else we need to know, I'm all ears.

I've measured the rigs of the same model production boats and found many differences. Here's some examples:

Different track locations (more common on boats without molded in areas for tracks)

Mast base damaged - mast ends up slightly taller or shorter due to difference between length removed and height of new step

Furlers - same model production boat, same furler, but different length link plates, different top swivel arrangement, halyard restrainer location changed (all effecting max luff). Tack height different due to link plates.

Mast rake variations - Recent example in same one design class is a boat with 2 inches of rake and another with 11 inches. We did a J-35 headsail not long ago and that boat had 36 inches of rake. I've seen other J-35's with a lot less rake. A large rake change

Builder changed spar supplier - tack up, tack back, hook up, and hook back all different. Masthead crane and backstay clearance different.

I could go on for a while. Suffice it to say that among the boats sailed by the majority of readers of this forum, there is no way to properly design a sail without measuring the rig.

Note I said properly design. I didn't exclude the possibility of a white triangle that sort of fits.

[cpa]

I have always had great luck and service just going through the local lofts. I am sure there are some quality outfits overseas, but I would not feel comfortable buying a sail from a place where I had to pay freight to get it back to the loft if there was an issue. This is coming from a guy who worked in a sail loft for most of his late teens to mid twenties.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by cpa

I have always had great luck and service just going through the local lofts. I am sure there are some quality outfits overseas, but I would not feel comfortable buying a sail from a place where I had to pay freight to get it back to the loft if there was an issue. This is coming from a guy who worked in a sail loft for most of his late teens to mid twenties.

cpa,

Totally agree. One question people should be asking before they buy is how a mistake will be handled. It doesn't matter if the loft is local or on the other side of the planet. I've shipped sails all over the world. I've had to ship a high tech $17,000 mainsail from Mexico back to our production loft because of a manufacturing error. (Things never seem to go wrong in a convenient place ;-) Nobody in the industry is immune to mistakes. They happen. The better companies accept responsibility and make things right.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Barnakiel,

Baloney. How many years have you spent in sailmaking and how many rigs have you measured? (...)

I did not measure rigs. I built sails. 18 moths with a major player. Some amount of one offs (e.g. VOR kites) and huge amounts of off the mill production (e.g. Hunter). We also received and forwarded small numbers of outsourced products from China.

That loft churned between 5 and 15 sails a day. I may have seen between +2k sails built. Returns and corrections were single units. From my perspective they were design team fups. But if you asked the design team they would tell you it was a production fup. I was production (and a minor part in advice/design of one-off sails for the international cruising crowd).

I will disappoint you but I did not see our team going to every boat we built a sail for. This would be simply impossible. It is possible with a small volume local sailmaker perhaps. But perhaps small volume local sailmaker has some disadvantages too.

China made sails were well made too. I would use them on my boat without any hesitation.

I will agree with 99% of your post (basically everything except for the balloon thing). The way you express things it is clear there is a different perspective. And that's good as otherwise we would not have anything to discuss here.

I will also add that buying local (be it a small loft or a big company) adds to our chances that this infrastructure (with associated jobs, skills and know how) will still be here tomorrow. So for this one reason I will too say buy local.

Cheers,
b.

[TOM]

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;1282211
but IMO until you have enough experience so that you don't have to ask the question you did,
Cheers,

Jim[/QUOTE]

Jim , Having crossed two oceans and sailed some 25,000 nm all in the last 4 years I'm not quite sure how to take your comment. My question on sail measurements has provoked a number of of responses on the many reasons why I should not use an on line sailmaker.
There are a number of reasons I will use Lee Sails which I suspect are the same reason thosands of other people use them every year.
They offer a high quality product at a very very competative price .
Price for a 120% genoa from local sail maker in Grenada $2670. Lee sails price $1420 landed in Panama.
Price for cruising shute local $2000 plus sock $375. Lee sails price including sock $1370.
I have heard nothing but good reports about Lee Sails as long as you fill out the spec sheet properly you get a great product at a fantastic price with super quick delivery.
Regarding my original question . A quick email to Lee sails and i have the answear.
　

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by TOM

Jim , Having crossed two oceans and sailed some 25,000 nm all in the last 4 years I'm not quite sure how to take your comment. My question on sail measurements has provoked a number of of responses on the many reasons why I should not use an on line sailmaker.
There are a number of reasons I will use Lee Sails which I suspect are the same reason thosands of other people use them every year.
They offer a high quality product at a very very competative price .
Price for a 120% genoa from local sail maker in Grenada $2670. Lee sails price $1420 landed in Panama.
Price for cruising shute local $2000 plus sock $375. Lee sails price including sock $1370.
I have heard nothing but good reports about Lee Sails as long as you fill out the spec sheet properly you get a great product at a fantastic price with super quick delivery.
Regarding my original question . A quick email to Lee sails and i have the answear.
　

Tom, I'm happy that you have resolved your uncertainty about sail design, and hope that you are happy with the resultant sail.

Re your experience: The original query indicated that you were uncertain of the factors involved in the design of your new sail. I'm surprised that after so many miles you had to ask us (CF) for the information. On the other hand, I've met some cruisers with heaps of miles who knew bugger all about how sails come to be built or how they should look and perform.

The respondents to your query included genuine sailmakers (I'm only an amateur with a small number of sails to my credit) and their advice favored face to face interaction as did mine. If I was offensive to you, I apologize, but my opinion is unchanged.

Cheers,

Jim

[TOM]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Tom, I'm happy that you have resolved your uncertainty about sail design, and hope that you are happy with the resultant sail.

Re your experience: The original query indicated that you were uncertain of the factors involved in the design of your new sail. I'm surprised that after so many miles you had to ask us (CF) for the information. On the other hand, I've met some cruisers with heaps of miles who knew bugger all about how sails come to be built or how they should look and perform.

The respondents to your query included genuine sailmakers (I'm only an amateur with a small number of sails to my credit) and their advice favored face to face interaction as did mine. If I was offensive to you, I apologize, but my opinion is unchanged.



Cheers,

Jim

Hi Jim , No problem . thanks for your input . We are on a bit of a budget and will try the Lee sails avenue . Will let you know how it all turns out