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Old 18-05-2022, 13:42   #16
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

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Originally Posted by Loredo View Post
To add a data point to this discussion. Sails are 3Di 700 ocean. Main is mast furled with full height vertical battens. Boat is a fully loaded Jeanneau 57, roughly 27 tons.



A pic often says more than words...
Slack tide, no currents to speak off, flat seas.
Impressive!! You say yours are 700s, what was the reasoning behind those rather than 370? And did you get a comparison quote to compare the two?

And does anyone have an idea where the numbers come from? Or maybe the North marketing people just can’t count :-)))
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Old 18-05-2022, 21:58   #17
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

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3di isn't a laminate, there is no mylar carrier therefore there isn't a shrinkage problem. It's an assembly of ribbons glued together with a thermoset over a 3d mold. Very cool technology. Also very expensive, roughly triple the price of a triradial hydranet sail. I would like to try a 3di but not at the prices I've been quoted.

https://www-northsails-com.cdn.amppr...-its-different

Wow, in New Zealand the difference between 3Di Endurance and Triradial HydraNet was barely 10%. But going offshore for membrane sails saved us 50%. Consider that.
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Old 18-05-2022, 23:12   #18
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

I'm fully aware that the 3Di aren't a laminate but a (significant) step up over laminates. Better has always meant "more money"! No doubt the 3Di are more expensive than most other sails. The point I wanted to bring through with them two pics : they (North / 3Di) deliver & you get what you pay for.
I went with the Ocean 700 simply because that's what North recommended
for my boat. I guess it's due to the size and loads on the sails that they said 700. How much faster the boat is with the 3Di? I have no real data point here since the sails they replace were shot. I can tell you though how it FEELS compared to even the best sails I've had in the past on other boats: Night & Day!



When I got the boat it was equipped with Hydranet triradials.
After only five years they were good only as garbage! Totally stretched and out of shape. My guess is the PO did it's good part in it but still...
The quote I got for new Hydranet sails was only roughly 15% less than the 3Di. Choice? A no brainer for me.


I've got the impression I'm starting to sound like a commercial. I'll add the usual disclaimer: I'm in no way affiliated or sponsored with/by North.
Just a satisfied cutomer.


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Old 19-05-2022, 02:54   #19
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

Thanks Loredo.

You were kind enough to respond to my thread from 2019, and report on your 3di sails. That thread had several happy sailors using 3di, and I am fairly convinced they're an excellent sail.

I did, just last month, hear from a North salesman (for what that's worth) that these would be the last sails I ever buy for our boat. A lofty claim, but one I was glad to hear, as getting information about 3di "wear" has been very difficult.

Wear is as important as performance, for a cruising boat. They just don't seem to be marketing it's "wear" properties; so I'm happy to hear from anyone who's actually using them.

Thanks for your contribution.

Cheers.
Paul.
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Old 19-05-2022, 03:36   #20
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

Thanks guys, really useful.

We'll be buying sails next year in Thailand for a new build catamaran and will defo get a North quote. I'm virtually certain we won't be getting woven sails and Doyle is the yard's usual sail partner so we'll get a laminate quote from them as well and post here for comparison info.
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Old 19-05-2022, 05:31   #21
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

Since there are so many sail experiences here could I tag a question related. My much smaller Jeanneau 38’ has 7 year old north sails. It’s a performance model which I found out is basically an option package the original owner added. This included upgraded winches and an electric coach roof winch North Sails , keel and mast
The sails have 5 years on them in Great Lake summers. I have no idea what model they are but I found a bill for cleaning them for “ bug stains” I’ve seen a tag saying North is there a material number somewhere to identify them ?
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Old 19-05-2022, 05:56   #22
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

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Wow, in New Zealand the difference between 3Di Endurance and Triradial HydraNet was barely 10%. But going offshore for membrane sails saved us 50%. Consider that.
There's a big HH cat here in the Caribbean and I've been told they're only getting a years life out of their laminate sails. Our one laminate sail is failing and needs to be replaced. The sun and heat is tough on them.
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Old 19-05-2022, 06:37   #23
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

GRIT,
"Wear is as important as performance, for a cruising boat."
Hmmm, I don't know if I'd subscribe to this line as is. Please define wear. Once dacron turns into "potato bags" they still can be used. No doubt about that one! The question is, SHOULD they still be in use? Not for me. I've replaced dacron potato bags in the past and that was (IF lucky) after five years if not sooner. Mine IS a pure cruising boat, still if I had 10 boat bucks and needed to spend 9 out of them (or all for that matter..) for good performing sails, I'd spend them and eventually wait to purchase other stuff. Should the performance come at the price of slightly reduced longevity, so be it.
I want to SAIL! I don't want a motorsailor... and to do that I'm ready to spend what needs to be spend. If I wanted an unexpensive hobby, I'd be jogging.
Joking aside, I got dyneema laminates for my previous boat. Still a steep investment back then. BUT, when I sold that boat 11 years later the laminates were still in perfect shape (replaced the UV protection twice) and should last at least another 10 years. To me the 3Di seem superior to the laminates, I can't seem to find a reason why they shouldn't last. Only time will tell though.


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Old 19-05-2022, 11:06   #24
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

A sailmaker is trying to talk us out of laminate sail due to the "off-the-beaten path" repairability. His experience is that the sails only seem to fail in remote areas where fixing a laminate is next to impossible. The suggestion is to use radial Hydranet so any chafe or tear can be more easily addressed. Any thoughts on laminate or 3DI repairability?
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Old 19-05-2022, 11:12   #25
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

Small 3Di repairs are as simple as placing a sticker over it. North will provide some of these. Haven’t done it myself yet, but at time of purchase the loft added some where our shrouds touch. Looked simple and easy.

There is an HH close to me with shredded laminate fore sails. I wouldn’t dare use laminate on our cruising boat.
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Old 19-05-2022, 11:42   #26
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

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Originally Posted by Loredo View Post
GRIT,
"Wear is as important as performance, for a cruising boat."
Hmmm, I don't know if I'd subscribe to this line as is. Please define wear. Once dacron turns into "potato bags" they still can be used. No doubt about that one! The question is, SHOULD they still be in use? Not for me. I've replaced dacron potato bags in the past and that was (IF lucky) after five years if not sooner. Mine IS a pure cruising boat, still if I had 10 boat bucks and needed to spend 9 out of them (or all for that matter..) for good performing sails, I'd spend them and eventually wait to purchase other stuff. Should the performance come at the price of slightly reduced longevity, so be it.
I want to SAIL! I don't want a motorsailor... and to do that I'm ready to spend what needs to be spend. If I wanted an unexpensive hobby, I'd be jogging.
Joking aside, I got dyneema laminates for my previous boat. Still a steep investment back then. BUT, when I sold that boat 11 years later the laminates were still in perfect shape (replaced the UV protection twice) and should last at least another 10 years. To me the 3Di seem superior to the laminates, I can't seem to find a reason why they shouldn't last. Only time will tell though.


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Sure, I can elaborate on that.

I guess it comes down to "Wear/Time/Cost" = Value.

You said "slightly reduced longevity", which means you have a line drawn in the sand somewhere too.

When laminated sails first came out, it seemed like they were lasting 4 seasons racing, and about 4 years cruising full time, before they started to fall apart. That's far too much "wear" for me, in four years.

When your flying potato bags, that's a done sail. To me, that's the end of the sail's life; it's worn out. Sure, you can fly it, but it's just for show at that point. In an emergency, I'll fly anything I can find, but for regular use, no.

Since my mainsail already seems to be stretched a little, after only two years; that's too much "wear" for me. The cost of paying $9000 for two years use, for a sail that has mediocre performance to begin with, is too much. For our boat, and our use case, the value of Dacron is just not there.

If a 3di, or laminate, will give me 10 years use at 3 times the price, that's better value. And, on top of that is the intangible value of being able to sail "better" that whole time. For me, "better" means faster and higher, and is worth a good bit of coin to me.

If 3di, or a laminate was 3 times the price and only lasted 5 years, then fell apart, most cruisers would consider that a bad deal. Because Wear is an important consideration for most cruisers. When a cruiser's sails fall apart, (especially folks like you and I, who sail all the time) he's kinda stuck finding new ones quick. Let's hope we're not in the back of nowhere at the time! A racer just motors home and orders new ones.

If I'm always looking for a sailmaker, for repairs, that's bad value for me. My time is valuable to me; When I'm cruising, I don't want to spend it searching for a sailmaker, instead of climbing that hill over there.

Your boat may be a "pure cruising boat", but it's captain has more than lazy downwind sailing in mind! There are lots of definitions for "pure cruising boat". Those folks on old full keeled boats, wouldn't consider your boat, or mine, "pure".

We are of the same mind. We very rarely run the engines, for more than 20 minutes for any reason. We sail everywhere, and usually on and off the anchor too. Which is why we're not happy with the dacron mainsail. It's just wearing out too quickly.

I hope this rambling post clears things up a little.

Cheers, and happy sailing.
Paul.
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Old 19-05-2022, 14:10   #27
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

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Small 3Di repairs are as simple as placing a sticker over it. North will provide some of these. Haven’t done it myself yet, but at time of purchase the loft added some where our shrouds touch. Looked simple and easy.

There is an HH close to me with shredded laminate fore sails. I wouldn’t dare use laminate on our cruising boat.
You wouldn't happen to be in Antigua would you? I was on that HH last week.
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Old 19-05-2022, 14:14   #28
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

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A sailmaker is trying to talk us out of laminate sail due to the "off-the-beaten path" repairability. His experience is that the sails only seem to fail in remote areas where fixing a laminate is next to impossible. The suggestion is to use radial Hydranet so any chafe or tear can be more easily addressed. Any thoughts on laminate or 3DI repairability?
If you're going to be in the tropics you really don't want laminates. Depending on your loads the best bang for the buck is dacron, if the load is too great then hydranet or 3di. We've found 3di to be very pricy so we have hydranet and overall we're very happy with it.
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Old 19-05-2022, 14:57   #29
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

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You wouldn't happen to be in Antigua would you? I was on that HH last week.
Curaçao. It just hauled out today. I talked to the owner. He said they were great for two years and good after that but failed rapidly once they started to fail.

We love our North 3Di we bought from Andrew in Antigua.
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Old 19-05-2022, 15:44   #30
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Re: North 3Di 330/370 Ocean

Something else to consider when you upgrade your sails from woven materials (including reinforced ones like HydraNet and Fibrecon) to fibre path sails, regardless of whether they are laminates or membranes), is your sail connections to the rig and boat. The new sails will stretch much less and transmit higher shock loads to the connections.

For a headsail this means the jib lead block(s) and/or travellers may need to be upgraded to handle higher loads. For a mainsail consider the head car and mast track/cars as well as the mainsheet systems and the reefing components. Your sheets and reef lines if they’re not high modulus will stretch and squall when going upwind. If you switch to high modulus sheets and reef lines ensure that your turning blocks, clutches and cleats can handle higher loads.
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