New 150% Genoa dilemma...

[littledevil]

I have the 150% roller furler genoa that came with the boat and i was using it past 3 season.
With my limited experience, i usually associate a sail with a dacron and not familiar with this material. Would that be simply called nylon? Is this a desirable material?
The genoa is pretty old, but it works for downwind, broad reaching etc. I hand stitched here and there, also took it to a local shoemaker to just run a sewing machine so to make it usable.
Now i am installing a removable inner stay to fly hank on jib (about 100%) and storm jibs.
For those who has similar set up, a roller furler and a removable inner, what would be the best roller furler genoa size to keep it on the furler?
The reason i am asking is that i have an opportunity to grab a lightly used %150 genoa for $800(almost identical size to what i have) made by precision sail, umbrella covered, looks good. The luff is about 30 feet, i am not sure about the market value of such sail but sounds reasonable i guess.
If i end up getting it ican keep the old one to be able to fly twin genoas on the furler(furler has double groove, i have 2 identical spinnaker poles and other required bits). I can do this with my current set up anyway with 100% jib on the furler and similar size hanked on the stay too its just bit smaller compared to the genoa run.
I have to admit i was using the genoa very often since we are inland and the wind usually does not pipe, although i would like to make the boat(and me ) ocean capable. I have read a thread before and the sailor who was refitting the boat for RTW(same boat) and he was suggested to get rid of the 150% genoa and replace it with something like 135%. I liked the idea but i am not going nowhere for at least another 6-7 years perhaps more(raising family) so it may not be viable to go to the same route for me.
Any opinion? Thanks in advance.
What should i do? Is my genoa looks like its totally shot?

[Hardhead]

Are you selling it, or seeking comment?

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

Are you selling it, or seeking comment?

Hi sorry just wanted to make sure that i was able to add pic. Now i included the text describing the subject.

[a64pilot]

It may well be Nylon and if so it’s a light wind sail.
I learned the hard way that going bigger does not always work well in light winds, I replaced my 110 Genoa with a 135 with sunbrella UV cover etc. thinking it would be good for light winds, and I kept my 110 with the idea of flying twin Genoa’s for downwind sailing as I have twin grooves also.

Well what I found out was that during those times that I really wanted the larger sail, it was too heavy to properly fill and it often would collapse, and I lost some pointing ability as the larger sail when trimmed in tight will contact my spreader, so that limits how tight you can trim it, the 110 fit inside of the spreader.

I ended up with a code zero, which does what I want, enabled me to sail on a reach in very light winds, and when it collapses the wind is pretty much zero.
I’m also contemplating on having my 135 cut down to a 110 as the Code zero can be flown until the 110 is plenty big, meaning I don’t need the 135 anymore.

I’d suspect that if you bought that big but heavy Genoa, you May have a similar result, and it’s not going to work in those light winds that you need a big sail for, for that you need a light weight sail, which pretty much means nylon and no heavy sunbrella UV strip, so it needs to come down when you don’t expect to use it.
My code zero has a UV cover that is sail material, it helps but it’s not a “real” IV cover like Sunbrella, but Sunbrella was too heavy.

[a64pilot]

I don’t normally comment on the sailing threads as I don’t consider myself much of a sailor, but thought I’d jump in here to try to save you from making my mistake.

[Pete7]

Hate to say this, but I think your existing sail is scrap and at the first sign of a breeze will fail spectacularly.

As to the other Precision sail, well 150% on a masthead rig is a huge sail. If you only sail in light winds then that may be acceptable. However, in medium and stronger winds you will need to furl earlier. We have a masthead rig and a 141% genoa. I will replace it with 125-130% next time. The problem as A64 has pointed out, is one sail can't work from 8 to 28 knots of wind. To be strong enough to work when in strong winds, the material will be too heavy for light winds. So for us next time smaller genoa and use our cruising chute when its light winds.

I can't see you needing 2 x 150% and if the wind piped up you could be in trouble very quickly.

You could have a look at smackmans videos which are interesting and I think he is a member of the forum. He uses 2 x 100% genoas downwind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inpr3r3Fw18

[HeinSdL]

I think you should be aiming to use the genoa fully unfurled most of the time. A partially unfurled genoa doesn't sail very well and is not good for the sail. A 150% genoa will be rolled in pretty soon with increasing wind while a 110% genoa would be suitable for much longer whilst only a little under powered in light winds.

This, in addition to the weight consideration mentioned earlier meaning the 150% genoa won't perform that well anyway in light winds, means 110% is kind of a better choice. In my view. And it is what I have and am very happy with my small-ish furling jib (in any case small-ish in comparison with mostly charter boats I meet in the Med).

[HeinSdL]

Oh, and the name Genoa comes from Genoa in Italy where I am currently based. There is not a lot of wind there hence they figured such a large 'jib' would work. And it does, there. For most other applications, anything much greater than 125% I would find more of a burden than a help.

[littledevil]

Thanks, so i am going to wait and see a bit further.
I guess i should have mention that i have a symmetrical and assymmetrical sail in my arsenal as well. I know the sail looks little beat up but no structural issue, so with a bit of a TLC i may get few more years out of it. Meantime. i ll keep an eye if a smaller genoa pops up, like 135% or a bit smaller.

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Hate to say this, but I think your existing sail is scrap and at the first sign of a breeze will fail spectacularly.

As to the other Precision sail, well 150% on a masthead rig is a huge sail. If you only sail in light winds then that may be acceptable. However, in medium and stronger winds you will need to furl earlier. We have a masthead rig and a 141% genoa. I will replace it with 125-130% next time. The problem as A64 has pointed out, is one sail can't work from 8 to 28 knots of wind. To be strong enough to work when in strong winds, the material will be too heavy for light winds. So for us next time smaller genoa and use our cruising chute when its light winds.

I can't see you needing 2 x 150% and if the wind piped up you could be in trouble very quickly.

You could have a look at smackmans videos which are interesting and I think he is a member of the forum. He uses 2 x 100% genoas downwind.

Thanks. Interesting system and looks a slightly more complex compared to fixing the inboard ends of the poles to the mast but the damping benefit may worth it.

[psk125]

The Hudson River, where LittleDevil sails, is notorious for not having any wind in the summertime. My daughter taught sailing in Nyack, and her constant fear on a typical windless day was that all the Optimist dinghies with her students in them would be swept, with no steerage way, downstream and end up getting run over by the Staten Island Ferry. That is why Hudson River Sloops like the Clearwater have HUGE mainsails, and long bowsprits that fly BIG jibs. LittleDevil will NEED a 150% genoa in order to have steerage in the summertime. His boat displaces 2300 kg (5000 lbs) on a 7.01 meter (23’) waterline and needs all the sail area it can get in light air. Especially if he has to cope with moving through any powerboat wakes. Squalls do come up suddenly: Storm King Mountain is aptly named. They will likely provide enough warning for LittleDevil to furl his 150% genoa and be up on the foredeck, half way into deploying his smaller jib, when it hits. Ten to fifteen minutes later he will have to unfurl his genoa again in order to continue moving forwards in the chop that the squall has left behind. This is not the Solent, Buzzards Bay or San Francisco Bay, where typical winds are more like 15-25 knots and sail areas tend to be smaller. With children in tow, LittleDevil is not likely to be venturing too far afield for a while.

We have a mainsail made by a sailmaker who went out of business about 20 years ago, that we’ve had restitched and that we still use for deliveries. It’s serviceable and saves wear on our newer sails. LittleDevil’s old genoa that’s been restitched may still be useful, but it is probably so blown out that upwind performance is not good. Unless it is actually a Gennaker (downwind sail), it is 99% certain to be dacron, or some variant. Nylon stretches too much for jibs. It is used in spinnakers because it IS stretchy, and so tends to split less when puffs hit. The “new” genoa, IF it fits, may improve performance considerably. It would be useful, and will probably last many years. It sounds expensive, however. Albin Vegas were popular enough that other used sails actually designed for the boat may be available. It might be worth checking around to see. Bacon, in Annopolis, has many, at prices much less than the $800 mentioned above. https://baconsails.com/bacon/select_sailboat_API.php
As ever, it pays to think things out before jumping.

[roverhi]

The orange sail looks like it's a nylon reacher drifter. Works well on a reach into the mid level wind range but too baggy to go hard on the wind even in light air. The lightweight nylon will get blown out if not dropped quickly in too strong winds. It will be a great sail for a relatively small range of wind speeds and relative winds. The sail will probably have a high clew which will allow it be sheeted to the boom to open up the slot and really perform on a reach.

The other sail is probably a dacron sail. If built right, still a light material that will fill nicely in light winds yet strong enough to maintain shape in stronger winds. The sail will be flat enough to go to weather and really power the boat on a reach. Not a sail to furl drastically but a GREAT sail if you are in a light wind environment and need to go to weather. As far as price, it's what the market will bare.

A new sail will probably run more than $1,500 so $800 isn't a bad price. On the other hand I bought an almost unused light 150% for my 35' boat for $500.

[Jim Cate]

Note that the OP is installing a Solent stay and will be able to fairly quickly invoke a much smaller jib. Solents are often set up like a number 4 jib, useful upwind in anything much above 10 knots true, so carrying a fairly light 150 on the furler makes sense. I'd be looking at maybe 5 ounce or so, and not planning to use upwind in more than 10 true, at whihc point the Solent comes into play. I wouldn't be thinking of using the genoa partly furled at all when close hauled.

And I too think the orange sail looks like a nylon drifter, a sail not useful upwind at the best of times. The improvement in upwind performance with a decent dacron genoa will be quite enjoyable!

Jim

[littledevil]

Thank you, i appreciate all the comments. To sum it up, yes the Hudson river is not the best sailing ground with limited winds. In addition to that, although i have the spirit of an ocean racer:biggrin, soccer practices, karate classes etc...You know it.
No doubt the orange sail is a bit stale. It may as well be 20 years old. Downwind i dont notice anything since it serves as a bag to catch the air, poled out, It will not take nowhere up wind.
Thaks for pointing out the solent installation as well . As it is not perfected yet, but i am willing to work and improve it. Honestly, my first trials with it was very satisfactory to a point that if my furler would go belly up one day, i am going totally hank on. Ohh i also notice that hank on sails are much cheaper.
So far i am equipped with
assymmetrical(made by north, in very good cond. purchased used $400)it was off of a j24 but rarely used
symmetrical( A bit older but it works. Since i am singlehandling mostly, i hoist it in only in very light conditions but it gives me great joy)
Big orange genoa 150% oldie
Rolly Tasker Hank-on Jib Foot 11’6” Luff25’ Leach23’2” This would be my upwind stay sail in lighter winds. Please take a note that albin vega has forward and aft lower shroud and the forward one is sort of limiting when it comes to finding a sheeting angle.
I used this information while planning
https://www.sailrite.com/Albin-Vega-27-Sail-Data
My solent stay is installed 18 inch aft of the stem so
i took that into account when i thought about the 'I' measurement.
I have 2 storm jib, luff: 15 and the other one with luff :17 . I plan on tacking them about 2 feet off the deck. They fill the foredeck/no overlap, the clews can be sheeted close to the centerboard. i hope to used them not only in storm condition but also in stronger winds and still achieve good drive. I reason that idea since the boat is light and a bit tender. But this are all guestimations of course. I will play and see how the boat handles hopefully gaining a better understanding about how she feels under different sail configurations and ultimately sail well balanced.
As you can see i love the sail power and would like to read and learn more tech stuff. Some of you pointed out few good readings, i also was able to download some good free books thanks to the internet. With such efforts, my goal is to be well versed in terms of basic physics of sailing, rig tuning and some further mambo jambo. Not to impress anyone but just as a personal improvement and for the love of sailing.
In addition to those , a %100 furling jib which allows me to go wing and wing with the rolly tasker on stay.
I may be interested in another hank on sail. about 21 feet luff to use as a step down from the rolly tasker(luff25). Considering they don't cost much used(plenty of listings locally $100,$150) It may wort a try.

[littledevil]

wing and wing with %100 furler jib and another %100 on stay. I wonder what kind of effect is in action since there is an 18 inch distance between the furler sail and the hank on.
The gap too. As far as i know, when going wing and wing we adjust to sheets to avoid the wind from spilling out, trying to control the roll.
From the aerodynamics point of view, would that be too optimistic to expect that gap to have a stabilizing effect? I am thinking about the reserve parachutes for example which have the small opening on the top surface to stabilize the rig while the air rams through. Sure a round canopy, and a barn door are two different animal though.
The day i did the test run, everything seemed ok but the wind was very light. Can't wait to take the boat out next season and see if its going to roll like a pig in a breeze with this set up.

my storm jib.

Rolly tasker on the stay.
Uploaded the pic from my phone to my album here, i will figure out how to rotate em.