Need help for standing rigging quotation review

[Shlomi]

Hello,
I'm currently in Greece. I've got a quotation for replacing my 2006 standing rigging and I have no clue, in figuring out if it's a fair offer. I'll appreciate any advice.
My boat is 2006 Boreal 50 ( 50 foot , the only one of this model). It's a cutter.
The mast is 18 meters, unstayed.


The stays are:
2 top stays and 4 lower stays are 12mm
2 mid stay are 10mm
2 back stays are 10mm
2 adjustable staysail back stays


The rigger is recommended as a professional and has impressively equipped shop.
He is using KOS wires and Stalok terminals and Stalok and blue wave attachments.
The quotation is about 20000 EUR, including the 24% VAT.
If needed I can post the detailed quotation.
Thanks!

[barnakiel]

You simply multiply the material's cost by three and this is about how much it should cost.


Most of the time local businesses work to the 30% material 30%taxes&labour 3%profit pattern. In Greece labour and taxes may be a bigger part as they are known for their inefficiency. Still, the overall rule is nearly always sufficiently accurate.



PS I would not use BlueWave material. I did and I had plenty of problem with these, and also seen horrible cases on my friends boats. I would rather try and go Stalok throughout.


barnakiel

[JPA Cate]

Second the motion for Sta-Lok or Sea Rig. The latter supplied t-ball for some of our rig on this boat which came with not available at the time Norseman fittings. We had Sta-Loks on the previous boat and Jim and I were able to put them all together (with Jim doing the hard bits) and trust them. It helps to have access to a vise. (We have one mounted on a piece of 3/4" plywood, so we can take it to where it needs to be used.)

Ann

[Shlomi]

Thank you barnakiel and JPA Cate,
I had a talk about the rigging change last night, with someone that shed some light for me on this, which actually supports your posts.
He said that:

• Since I plan to sail in the Northern Atlantic and similar places, I should change the rigging in places that do rigging for heavy seas, specifically UK or Netherlander. In contrast to Greece, where they focus mainly on work for charter boats.
• Doing this job in UK will cost me half the price (I plane to sail there anyway).
• I should use pressed wire connections, rather than the self locking Stalok, since they are stronger.

[bearsails]

Shlomi
Not to post any shade on what you have found but the Stalock terminals are a better choice. In the future they can be disassembled and reused, can be inspected, are proven to be 95% of wire strength ( when properly installed). Compression fittings are great as they are somewhat cheaper, if they are well done they are very strong but can suffer from crevice corrosion on lower connections as the salt can percolator down into the fitting.
Either way they are both excellent options and I would not rule out Staloks, especially on lower terminations.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers and fair winds.
Mike

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Shlomi

Thank you barnakiel and JPA Cate,
I had a talk about the rigging change last night, with someone that shed some light for me on this, which actually supports your posts.
He said that:

A lot of this is just nonsense. I am not sure at all the qualifications of the person you talked to, but here is my take...

Originally Posted by Shlomi

[*]Since I plan to sail in the Northern Atlantic and similar places, I should change the rigging in places that do rigging for heavy seas, specifically UK or Netherlander. In contrast to Greece, where they focus mainly on work for charter boats.

There is nothing different about "heavy weather rigging." It is either done right, or not. In northern Europe you will find good riggers and bad ones, In Greece you will find good riggers, and bad ones. A good rigger will prepare the boat correctly for whatever conditions it was designed for.

Originally Posted by Shlomi

[*]Doing this job in UK will cost me half the price (I plane to sail there anyway).

Half? NO WAY! You are not going to get a boat this size professionally rigged for 10KEUR, unless you are in a place like Trinidad (maybe).

Originally Posted by Shlomi

[*]I should use pressed wire connections, rather than the self locking Stalok, since they are stronger.[/LIST]

This is also wrong. Swaged fittings are not terrible, but they are not perfect either. If they are correctly made by a skilled operator, then can be very strong. But to claim that they are significantly stronger than properly made mechanical terminals is wrong. Certainly mechanical terminals are more expensive to buy, but they can also save a fair amount of rigger labor on the installation.

[barnakiel]

Pressed better than Stalok ???


Well, not in our boat.



Since 2002 :



Stalok failures - 0 (zero)
Pressed failures - 5 (five)


The boat has been rtw and then 4 times across the Atlantic - tropical and North.


The way I see this, pressed terminals are way more prone to failure than Staloks.


We used Selden and Bluewave terminals. Bluewave were real bad (spliting along, terminals aged 4-6 yeras.)


I have never seen a single broken Stalok terminal.



ymmv


barnakiel

[Fore and Aft]

Sailing Harmonie I was thinking the same thing. I have seen the way some charter boats are sailed and its brutal. Accidental gybes in particular really test the rig.
The only way the job will cost half in the UK would be if you fitted all stays yourself.
Cheers

[NeilH]

You can get a god idea of material costs on the JimmyGreen website, custom rigging section.

Meantime, I have a current quote for our Allures 45 coming in at about £6,000 for the materials only, this for a Sparcraft cutter rig, 19m mast. Excluding our running backstays, which are dyneema.

Have you considered re-rigging in Dyneema - ie Dynice Dux ?

[OS2Dude]

Swaged fittings are not stronger than compression fittings. Most cruising boats use compression fittings like StaLok or Hayn Hi-Mod. Swaged fittings often hide crevasse corrosion and can not be easily inspected. With compression fittings, all you need is some spare rigging wire and you can remake a broken stay anywhere.

[SigaSiga]

We had a very similar job done on our 50ft cutter in 2020 in Greece. The wire work was done in Athens by Meltemi then fitted in Kalamata.by Mixalis Listas Including SSB isolators the job cost just over £8000.

[Perna]

I have heard it is common in Greece to pay cash, ie to avoid VAT. Not saying it's correct but it is a substantial reduction.

[gvolos]

Originally Posted by Shlomi

Hello,
I'm currently in Greece. I've got a quotation for replacing my 2006 standing rigging and I have no clue, in figuring out if it's a fair offer. I'll appreciate any advice.
My boat is 2006 Boreal 50 ( 50 foot , the only one of this model). It's a cutter.
The mast is 18 meters, unstayed.


The stays are:
2 top stays and 4 lower stays are 12mm
2 mid stay are 10mm
2 back stays are 10mm
2 adjustable staysail back stays


The rigger is recommended as a professional and has impressively equipped shop.
He is using KOS wires and Stalok terminals and Stalok and blue wave attachments.
The quotation is about 20000 EUR, including the 24% VAT.
If needed I can post the detailed quotation.
Thanks!

My opinion is that they're asking too much. Try George at Meltemi like someone else also suggested. He does lots of work here and has been around for over 30 years. Look him up on the internet.

[j.g.evans]

I think you can redo the rigging yourself using STa-lok fittings for half of your quote. You can do 1 wire at a time with the mast up.