Max righting moment question

[Don C L]

Personally I go with stainless chainplates and no to the backstay tensioner. Through-bolting new chainplates with sufficient backing should be fine, certainly better than just through the deck.

[TrentePieds]

I doubt very much that there is any need to increase your wire sizes. This little boat is only 300 SqFt in total sail area: 160 on the main and 120 on the fore. That's no mor'n'a coupla handkerchiefs! On the boat I used to teach on - ab initio - the main was 400 SqFt all on its own. I was perfectly able - still would be - of putting a double reef in it, all on my own, in about 30 seconds, when it was blowing 20. And that's when you do it. You don't leave it till it's blowing 30!

You said: “My uppers are 3/8 turn buckles 3/16 wire. And lowers are 5/16 turnbuckles 5/32 wire, back stay is 3/8 turnbuckle w 7/32 wire”. The breaking strengths of those wire sizes (1x19 SS) are 3,000 lbs, 4,400 lbs, and 5,600 lbs respectively. There's no way you are going to break them – if they are in sound condition - until long, long after you've wet your knickers. And when that happens, I guarantee you that your automatic reaction will be to ease sheets and the load will come off her. That's what you do when things begin to creak [or leak ;-)] – you ease sheets.


Old Wally McInnes designed the boat so that when you are beam-reaching and above, if you let go the tiller, the boat will turn to weather all on her own, and the load will come off her as she luffs. If you want to beam-reach this boat with the rail under, I'll bet you you'd have to stand on the inside of the leeward cockpit seat and heave on the tiller with all the might of which you might be capable. If you do that, and then let go the tiller, she'll pop right back up on her feet. She might even get so excited that she'll pop right over on the other tack :-)!


A sprit would be good. All the rest seems okay, so just get some miles under your keel. Stop worrying and start sailing. THEN, when you have a “feel” for things, you can begin to contemplate changes :-)!


Cheers


TrentePieds

[Eastward ho 24]

Not to beat a dead horse. If I do add the sprit and put my roller out on in with my current 150 genoa. That wouldn't increase my sail area correct , but by moving the headsail fore the 2foot( or what ever it's is I haven't measured yet) . would that help sailing speed all that much? It'll move the center of effort foreward giving more weather helm or Lee helm?

[Don C L]

I am guessing the 150 you have was intended to be on the roller out on the sprit. So the sail shape will be better, i.e. correct, therefore it should perform better. If it is all correct, it won't give you lee helm, just a little less weather helm. It should balance out correctly. Since you won't be dragging the rudder correcting the excess weather helm, she will be free to go faster too. I can't remember, was she intended to be cutter rigged?

[Eastward ho 24]

I think cutter or masthead sloop I see some for sale sloop rig with bowsprit and see some that are cutter not sure what or if the original sail plan was but I'm assumeing masthead sloop with or without bowsprit

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24

Not to beat a dead horse. If I do add the sprit and put my roller out on in with my current 150 genoa. That wouldn't increase my sail area correct , but by moving the headsail fore the 2foot( or what ever it's is I haven't measured yet) . would that help sailing speed all that much? It'll move the center of effort foreward giving more weather helm or Lee helm?

Overlapping sail area is much less efficient than non overlapping sail area. So a bowsprit will increase you effective sail area.

A lot depends on the balance of the boat. Lee helm is a killer to windward, but from tight reaching to downwind a long bowsprit and sail forward helps in most ways, minimising helm, and steadying the boats yaw. And greatly increasing overall speed and comfort.

But Its not good to rely on a bobstay to keep the mast up, hence the cutter or a solent stay to the stem. Removable so you can tack the big genoa easily in light airs.

If it were me Id probably use the old 100% self tacker as a solent jib. Rather than go the cutter route on a small boat. That way runners arent needed and everything is much simpler.

At this stage you really need sea miles and experiance on the boat.

Is there a big hatch in the bottom of the cockpit? Make sure its is almost completely watertight if so.

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[TrentePieds]

Quote: "would that help sailing speed all that much?"

No it wouldn't. You wouldn't know the difference, cos it's NOT from additional fore-triangle the EH24 gets whatever little speed she has. The difference twixt your present setup and a 110% hdls on a forestay taken to the end of the sprit is not likely to be more than 1/4 knot in 15 knots of wind on the beam.

And you are rather asking the wrong question about lee and weather helm, so consider this: In the general case - yours is special case, methinks - moving the CE forrard will TEND towards lee helm, i.e. the head of the boat will tend to turn to leeward. Moving the CE aft will TEND to give the boat weather helm, i.e. the boat will tend to luff up. The DESIGNED CE can live comfortably in a small range fore'n'aft because the sheeting of the sails, as they are trimmed from moment to moment, affects the helm.

I dare say that in your particular, special case, somebody has been monkeying with your rig, and your job is therefore to CORRECT the damage that was done to the boats tracking ability. Your helm, I dare say, is now MUCH too "hard". Loosing the sprit and using the wrong hdsl will have buggered up the boat's "balance on the helm". The balance will not be what McInnes intended it to be.

As Snowpetrel said: The hedsl is NOT for speed. It's for trimming the helm. Remember what I told you many responses ago: In THIS boat the drive (on a close reach) comes from having a nice laminar airflow over the first foot or two of the main. A 110% hdsl will help to give you that, and it doesn't have to be a "deck sweeper" either. The clew can be at the height of your gooseneck, or even higher, and a high clew like that confers advantages in terms of actual sail-handling when coming through the wind as well as in terms of being able to see what's on your lee bow.

Snowpetrel said not to rely on a bobstay. In a modern rig I would agree with him. (Modern rig? Bobstay? Oxymoron!) But the forestay tension on this little boat (as designed) is diminutive compared with the tension on a MODERN boat's forestay. McInnes designed the boat for a sprit and, therefore, given the era and the general design idiom, he would have provided for an attachment for the bobstay low down on the cutwater, probably right at the waterline, in order to optimize the triangulation.

IMO on this stumpy little foredeck a Solent stay would be unnecessary and be a PITA in more ways than one :-)!

If, in addition to having a nice laminar flow on the back of the main, you can contrive a tidy laminar flow all along the hdsl luff, Bob's yer uncle. It's a LOT easier to get that well behaved flow with a hanked-on sail than with a roller furl. Consider also that a roller FURL is NOT a roller REEF. It you reef (reduce area) with a roller furling or roller reefing hdsl, you play hob with the desirable laminar airflow. Sometimes one might be willing to trade speed and weatherliness for the convenience of a roller furl. I don't think yours is one of those cases, cos the EH24 requires (and deserves) all the drive you can give her.

If I recall, she's 21 feet LWL. So all the speed you are ever gonna get is 1.3 * 21^1/2 = 6 knts. And you'll be damn lucky to get that! TrentePieds is 25LWL so she is good for 6.5 knots. Theoretically. But with a mast roller furling main AND a roller furling hdsl I'm lucky to get 5! The previous owner, who "improved" TrentePieds, was EXTREMELY weak on the fundamental concepts. But who cares? Like the EH24, TrentePieds was designed to be a MOTORSAILER, not a sailboat. And NOTHING goes to weather like fifteen hundred RPM :-)! I get 5 knots at 1,500RPM delivering about 10HP. Push it to 2,100 RPM and, say, 16HP and she begins to climb her own bow wave and gets all squirrelly. Your little ship will do that too, if you push her too hard under power, tho not as bad as mine cos you have the advantage of a long keel and a "real" rudder instead of the silly little spades they put on modern boats :-)

But as I said before: Just go sailing ! You'll learn all about this abstruse stuff as you gain experience. And the stuff won't really make sense to you until, and unless, you gain experience,

Cheers

TrentePieds

[Eastward ho 24]

Thanks for the info. I had her up at 6.4 knots was my best! Haha prop was whizzing like crazy. Any how off topic talking about motoring. when I hear small craft advisory is usally when I take her out.first time 20 to 30 I tried to motor and she was hobbie horseing to the point it was scary so I turned back(trying to motor up stream and up current into the waves) ego bruised I turned back put up the sailsm at first just the Genny all the way out. Eventually double reefed the main too.Took the wind and seas on starboard tack. Was a whole different boat pushed 6 knots took the waves and had a good day of it. ( Other then Eyes glued to the chainplates and their spider cracks).I'll tell you what from riding croch rockets at 150mph on one wheel..there is no rush like sailing.been lucky last three weekends small craft advisory's. heard the gale warning last weekend thank the gods the blowout tide had me stuck in the mud at the slip haha. Maybe. It was my angle of attack while I was motoring but was so nervous I jogged for about an hour and a half with the iron Genny only because I was to scared to turn around! But once the sails went up things felt right. Now I don't know if it's my inexperience or if it's normal when it's blowing hard and I'm to sissy to put the main up I'll roll my headsail out to 150 and I can get 5 knots steady however I can't get through the wind to tack if it blowing hard so I resort to doing backwards tacks ( if there's such a thing) sould I be able to tack in heavy wind with just the genny.?and some times seems like no rhyme or reason when and not often,when I tack the boat will almost turn all the way around before she digs in and I get steerage. Think thatsjust my inexperience ? it's my understanding as you said my roller(cdi flexible furler) is only meant to store the Genny, it's not meant to reef it? ..thanks for letting me share haha.

[Don C L]

Any boat will have trouble tacking with just a jib or genoa up. That's because the same sail that is driving you is trying to push the bow off. You may, if you have enough speed and momentum push her around, but with your hull design, being slower and longer keel, more difficult. I wouldn't try it in close quarters. But you have the 150 fully out in what kind of winds?

[Eastward ho 24]

I have it out in 15 to 20 knots.the boat Handles poorly as far as maneuvering at I'd say 90% or less. reefed in it sits high and foreword kinda just blows the bow around. I'll get as close to the wind as I can and when the boat digs in she gets going pretty good along with my heart rate. I have had her rails just about in the water ( not controlled sailing or intentionally though) one of my first sails not knowing any better every one was motoring I thought I'd try to sail I put all my canvas up started to heel panicked and turned off the wind did a 180. Lesson learned.

[Snowpetrel]

A deep Reefed main is your friend for motor sailing to windward in nasty stuff, it really damps the pitching and roll, and provides just a bit of extra drive and balance for the helm, holding the nose up.

Again in strong winds reefed main and a bit of headsail or ideally a small solent or storm jib hanked on is much much better than just a single big headsail.

With just a big headsail tacking will not be reliable on that type of boat in any seaway.

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[TrentePieds]

Quote: "however I can't get through the wind to tack if it blowing hard so I resort to doing backwards tacks ( if there's such a thing) sould I be able to tack in heavy wind with just the genny."

No, you shouldn't :-0)!!. Remember what I said about lee and weather helm and how the boat's "balance" is determined by the sail you carry. The reason you can't "tack" her (bring the wind on the other side by turning the boat's head through the "eye of the wind") is that you are unbalanced wearing only the genny. The CE is too far forward and the boats greatest desire is to turn AWAY from the wind.

Turning away from the wind and bringing the wind on the other side by bring the STERN (rather than the head) through the "eye of the wind" is called "wearing". That's the proper jargon for your "backwards tack". With only the genny up you'll have no trouble wearing. But to bring her on a close reach at the conclusion of the wear might be a bit of a trick. Because she's UNBALANCED.

Next time you go out, try wearing only the main. Gennies are MODERN boat stuff and really belong in the realm of racing. Antiquities like the EH24 have little use for gennies (as distinct from jibs) and don't benefit much from them. We can have a deeper discussion on that topic later :-)

Wearing only your main, you'll find that you can both tack and wear. But be careful when you wear, or the boom WILL smack you on the head. And - I'm not joking! - that could kill you! That's why you sometimes see racing crews wear crash helmets! We'll come back to that later.

I've told you, in terms of "balance" and CE location why you can't tack wearing only the genny. Now you tell me, in terms of balance and CE location, why you can both tack and wear when under main alone ;-0)!

TrentePieds

[Eastward ho 24]

I'll take "the ce is in midships allowing me to Wear or tack for 500.?" It's just so comforting to know when my heart rate gets up over 200 I can just roll in that genny breathe,and start over..( I have lazy jacks I need to install them though, and I set up a jury rigged jiffy reefing setup using some blocks that were on the mast for the old foresail, and a cleat on the boom) it takes alot of time and moves to get a reef in. I practice Everytime I drop my sail but until I add the hardware it'll be hard to master. I feel like the sails gonna rip at the reef knots too..guess I gotta man up and stop spoiling myself with the roller.

[TrentePieds]

Lazy Jacks??? C'mon Eastward - it's only 160 SqFt ;-0)!

You'd better come on over on the Left Coast and I'll show you how to set up and do the job. Double reef, using jiffy reefing, shouldn't take you 15 seconds if you're set up right :-)

Are your spars wooden, or have they bin mucked with by a PO same as the sprit?

And stop being afraid of the boat. She can take better care of you, than you can of 'er :-)

TrentePieds

[Eastward ho 24]

Spars are aluminum. Lazy jacks don't make single handing easier? I'm picturing dropping the main with out even having to climb up on my dog house. Hopefully I ll be crossing the canal in 3 yrs I'll swing on through by then I hopefully I'll show you a trick or 2..