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Old 06-09-2020, 04:58   #1
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Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Hi all:

I have a single lines reefing system on my 56 sq meters (607 sq feet) main sil.

The stainless ring creates a lot of friction and I was thinking of replacing it with an Antal low friction rings.

Questions:

1) How do you lash the low friction ring? I was thinking about keeping the stainless steel one on the opposite side.

2) How big should I go with the low friction ring?

3) Can anybody who has done it post some pics and feedback?




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Old 06-09-2020, 05:46   #2
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Hmmm. Starting with #2, you'll get diminishing returns with larger low-friction rings, because the advantage will be only in reduced contact surface between rope and ring. Ergo, there's little point in maaking it much bigger than the original steel ring.

Then #1. Tape that is sewn into place has an advantage over a cord lashing here because you have another sort of friction - the tape rubs against the grommet, as you can see in the discoloration of the tape in the middle. Tape is becoming popular as an alternative to parachute cord.

If I was going to use parachute cord for the job I think I'd use about four wraps, then seize it on both sides with a clove hitch, and then glue the two ends together. Then I'd inspect it frequently until I was sure that the lashing was not being damaged by the grommet.

As for #3, I'm approaching this only from a lot of experience with lashings. Others may have different advice or something more specific to share. It's a pretty simple situation. Good luck with it.
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Old 06-09-2020, 05:53   #3
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

You would have a much bigger gain by switching to bare Dyneema line (rather than dacron covered line you show). It is rather slipperier and smaller diameter (which reduces friction).

You would have bigger gains if you used a block with good bearings. 'Low Friction Rings' are actually not all that low friction, especially for 180-degree turns. Blocks have MUCH less friction in loaded 180-degree turns.

That all said . . . . low friction rings will be better than the stainless ring.

We used blocks on our tack reef lines. We did use rings on the clew lines (because did not want to have block extra weight flogging on the leach).

As to lashings - you can either use three turns of dyneema cord (finished with a bunch of constrictors or half hitches) or sewn webbing.

For size - bigger is better for the frictional component . . . for your situation perhas an antal R20.14 (or similar sizedother brand).
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:33   #4
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Good application. Yes, Dyneema would help a lot.

Sew them into webbing. Use the wider style ring, not the one you showed. These give a larger bend radius and thus less friction. Solid rings are for different applications.
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:54   #5
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Add Antal reefing blocks on leech where you probably have a lot of friction also.
We told our sail maker about them and added them to our main. Big difference in ease of reefing. Since then, the sail maker is recommending them on their new mains that they sell.
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:20   #6
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

I had a similar set up on a 63m^2 mainsail on my last boat, an X46. I agree with Breaking Waves - the solution we ended up with was 8mm dyneema reefing lines running through small blocks shackled to the tape through the reef points. The advantage of blocks is that it allows the block to turn around its swivel to eliminate some twist in the reefing lines without having to chase the twist all the way to the end. A block such as a Ronstan RF35100 might be suitable to give you an idea.

To eliminate friction you need the turning radius to be large in relation to the line diameter. Fitting an Antal ring helps a bit but fitting a block is an even greater increase in diameter. Reducing the line diameter makes the block dimensions acceptable.
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:33   #7
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

I agree that using Dyneema will reduce friction but what are you using to secure it?
My current reefing set up uses a halyard clutch for the reefing line, which is unlikely to hold Dyneema.


I could add a cover but this does not seem optimal.
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:54   #8
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

I cant imagine having single line reefing on a main that big. My cat had Harken ball bearing slides etc and double line reefing and it was still a lot of work.
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Old 06-09-2020, 11:39   #9
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Mc View Post
I agree that using Dyneema will reduce friction but what are you using to secure it?
My current reefing set up uses a halyard clutch for the reefing line, which is unlikely to hold Dyneema.


I could add a cover but this does not seem optimal.


The clutch is an XTS 8/14mm
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Old 06-09-2020, 11:42   #10
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O View Post
Add Antal reefing blocks on leech where you probably have a lot of friction also.
We told our sail maker about them and added them to our main. Big difference in ease of reefing. Since then, the sail maker is recommending them on their new mains that they sell.


Most of the friction I believe is in those s/s rings. The blocks on the leech are ball bearing.

Some other friction is in the boom.
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Old 06-09-2020, 11:52   #11
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

We have a 672 ft2 (62 m2) square top mainsail with single reef line. However, the reef points have blocks installed, the mast has ball bearing cars, and we have an electric winch.

Reefing can be accomplished by one person. Trim the jib, travel down the mainsail, set the autopilot, release the mainsheet, slowly let out the main halyard while winching in the reef line (which means holding down the power button). We have the halyard pre-marked, so we know when to stop the lowering, and close the clutch. I should probably have the reef line marked too, but instead just watch the boom as the reef line gets pulled in. Just make sure the mainsheet can run easily during all of this. Close the clutch on the reef line, put the mainsheet on the winch and motor it in tight, and then crank the traveler car back up to above centerline. It can all be done with the jib moving the boat and the autopilot steering. Or alternatively, you can start the motors and head upwind. The stack pack catches the reefed main material.
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Old 06-09-2020, 11:57   #12
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
We have a 672 ft2 (62 m2) square top mainsail with single reef line. However, the reef points have blocks installed, the mast has ball bearing cars, and we have an electric winch.



Reefing can be accomplished by one person. Trim the jib, travel down the mainsail, set the autopilot, release the mainsheet, slowly let out the main halyard while winching in the reef line (which means holding down the power button). We have the halyard pre-marked, so we know when to stop the lowering, and close the clutch. I should probably have the reef line marked too, but instead just watch the boom as the reef line gets pulled in. Just make sure the mainsheet can run easily during all of this. Close the clutch on the reef line, put the mainsheet on the winch and motor it in tight, and then crank the traveler car back up to above centerline. It can all be done with the jib moving the boat and the autopilot steering. Or alternatively, you can start the motors and head upwind. The stack pack catches the reefed main material.


Thanks SailsJumanji!

I have the main halyard marked to reef points, and do are my reef lines.

I also have electric whiches.

But I still have a lot of friction on the reef lines that I would like to reduce, hence the question.
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Old 06-09-2020, 13:39   #13
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

I have Holt 40mm Dynamic Ball Bearing Tie-On Block : HT2040T on both clew and tack of my 2 line reefing lines (3 reefs) using 8mm dyneema lines and 4 x loops of 3mm dyneema to lash them to the s/s eyes on webbing stitched to the sail . Virtually no friction and v strong .
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Old 06-09-2020, 13:46   #14
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

If the main halyard and mainsheet are slack enough there really shouldn't be that much load on the reefing lines, except maybe the last part on the clew. I always just hand pull the tack reef and only use a winch for the last bit on the clew. Mainly because my clew reef elevates the boom and I usually don't raise it with the topping lift before reefing. After the tack and clew are set I take tension back up on the halyard and do need a winch for that.



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Old 06-09-2020, 14:10   #15
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Re: Low friction rings on the main as reef points

Quote:
Originally Posted by james pask View Post
I have Holt 40mm Dynamic Ball Bearing Tie-On Block : HT2040T on both clew and tack of my 2 line reefing lines (3 reefs) using 8mm dyneema lines and 4 x loops of 3mm dyneema to lash them to the s/s eyes on webbing stitched to the sail . Virtually no friction and v strong .


Thanks! Do you have pics?
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