Jedi hi-tech halyards v2

[s/v Jedi]

My current halyards are from 2006 and I documented making them here:
https://sv-jedi.smugmug.com/Projects...ards/i-xJ9jCnW

I used Vectran and it didn't hold up to UV like I had hoped. Still 10-11 years ain't too bad, but I have Amsteel Blue rigging from 2004 which is still good, so I'm switching to that.

I'm also making new topping lifts which are spare halyards as I don't really need topping lifts while sailing. For this I selected Samson 7/16" XLS Yachtbraid which is a polyester double-braid. These need to be spliced as well.

After a lot of research I have selected Samson 1/4" Amsteel Blue AS78 for the main and mizzen halyards:
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/samso...00?recordNum=1

The breaking load of this AS78 Dyneema is 8,600lb which is good for a 45' sloop which is equal to the main mast of my ketch. For simplicity and to get a better price, I decided to use the same for the mizzen mast. I ordered a full 600' spool while I only need 255' for main and mizzen halyards so I have plenty for other rigging when that comes up.

1/4" is too thin for my rope clutches, plus Dyneema is very slippery. For this reason I am adding a 3/8" polyester sleeve for the standing part from the rope clutch to the end, where I will put a Flemish eye splice like I did with the previous halyards. This sleeve is from Yale Cordage and has a messenger line through the center. I still had this because I had bought a full 600' spool of that when I made the previous halyards. It has been stored in a dark place and is good as new. I checked on-line but couldn't find it anywhere now so it's hard to source this. I believe this is because they want to sell you a sleeved Dyneema and let you strip part of the cover and dispose of the left-over... which costs much more.

I was about ready to use a dog-bone or sliding splice with a stopper strop for attaching the halyards to the sails but I still have some expensive Wichard headboard shackles with integrated thimbles so I just had to use those.

This left the decision on how to splice the Dyneema onto the shackles and below is what I came up with. There is a standard Brummel locked splice but if you look carefully you will see that there is a second splice around the thimble. This was invented by Evans Starzinger for use with a low friction ring. This is very similar so I combined that with the Brummel splice and like this very much.
The tail that is buried in the main splice is 18" long which is 72x rope diameter and I tapered it to the extreme: every 1/2" a single strand and each strand is cut under an angle so as to taper even the fibers in the strand a bit. This is the last 5" of the tail. There is no lock stitching at all and the only two tools I used were the 5.5mm Selma fid and my new nifty Kevlar/Dyneema scissors: what a difference those make

I will update this thread as the work progresses

[GRIT]

Nice work, I'm going to read the thread you linked, to see more of your work. lots to learn on my end.

Thanks for posting, I'll be rigging next year, so I'll be taking notes...

Cheers.
Paul.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I like the splice around that thimble, & would be curious to know the details of it/how to do it, & what kinds of test numbers Evans got with it. Care to post such?

As to the splicing pics in that album, they make me think that when I'm doing the same, maybe my (Scottish) Gran would've been proud. Seeing as she was always knitting back in the day.

FWIW Samson makes some interesting thimbles that I've yet to try. But which are appealing in that the thimble can't slip out of the eye splice. Not just in running rigging applications, but especially for things like anchor rodes, & mooring pendants.
Thimble

Also, might the early demise of your Vectran halyards be linked to it's being uncovered? As in no jacket, nor Maxi Jacket II or RP25. Particularly since it takes a beating in the sun as do most aramids.

[gjorgensen]

That's an impressive life for Vectran. I was not able to get 10 years out of covered Vectran here in San Diego.

Both Rigworks here in San Diego and APS (APS - Annapolis Performance Sailing | APS) sell Yale and New England cover if you need a source. They're both great outfits to work with.

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, I'll just post answers about questions I receive in PM as well as here in the thread, so that everybody gets the info.

Q: why such small diameter line (1/4" Dyneema for a 64' boat)?

A: here is the Samson line selection guide: http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/..._Guide_WEB.pdf
Jedi is a ketch so the load is divided over two masts. Our main mast is about equivalent to that of a 45' boat while the mizzen is like a 40' boat. The guide shows that 1/4" Amsteel Blue is the right choice. It also lists 1/2" XLS which is what my boat came with (half steel wire ugh) which is just a little weaker. My topping lifts, which will be kind of spare halyards as well will be 7/16" XLS.

Here's another way to find out: get your Rigger's Apprentice by Brion Toss and find the table that lists working loads for halyards. For my boat it's 1,500lb for the main halyard, which should be 20% of breaking strength so 5*1,500=7,500lb line minimum, which is a perfect match with the tables in the Samson guide

About the rope clutches: I have the old Lewmar clutches which are okay but not sold anymore. With my halyards v1 project, I replaced the clutches for the main and mizzen halyards with new Spinlock clutches for smaller diameter high tech rope. Those have plastic housings and I read reports about failures and mine don't look so hot anymore. I needed more clutches for another project and now bought Antal clutches and those look perfect: all metal, aluminium and stainless steel. I may switch to all Antal in the future.

[s/v Jedi]

Q: How is the splice around the thimble done?

A: Of-course I can't find the detailed description at the moment but I did get one picture:

Basically there are two wraps around the ring/thimble but the second wrap is buried inside the first. The picture also shows the first part of the Brummel lock and you can see that there is a short length is only one wrap around the ring, plus the working end is pulled through the standing part a little below the ring. This creates a little triangle so that the angles of the eye are improved while the ring can't fall out.

I did exactly the same with the thimble. The circumference of the thimble is 3"; the Brummel lock needs 1" and I need an 18" buried tail in the main splice. As you almost wrap around the thimble twice, I counted 5" for that, plus one for the Brummel plus 18 for the bury so a total of 24". I put the end of the Dyneema line into a Selma fid, made a mark at 24", then formed a big loop and entered the fid at the mark in the direction of the working end, i.e. opposite of a normal eye splice. Then 2.5" further I exited the core on the opposite side of the line as where I entered it, then pulled the loop tighter and inserted the thimble. It looks a bit complicated but after you get your measurements worked out it is a matter of seconds to create the splice around the thimble.

The trouble starts later: the first part of the Brummel is easy and done as in the picture above. But for the second part, you can't do the trick of the Brummel with only one end available because the whole thimble is there and impossible to pull that through the line :-) This means I had to pull all 120' of line through to finish the Brummel. Let me post a link to how the Brummel is done; where they pull the long end through it's just 3' but for my real mizzen halyard it was 120'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0B6tYTVHVM

[s/v Jedi]

Q: The Vectran lasted long/short?

A: It was Yale Cordage Vectrus (Vectrus - Single Braided Rope & Single Braid Rope - Industrial Rope | Yale Cordage) which is a 12-strand single braid but is has their Maxi-jacket Coating which provides UV resistance. Which helps a little. Also, this was a 3/8" diameter which was around 20,000lb breaking strength which was way overkill so I didn't care so much for degradation of the outer strands. Last year I saw it got worse inside as well and didn't hoist people up the rig with it anymore.

I took the opportunity to also replace the bosuns chair because that was 20 years old as well and at some point doesn't look safe anymore.

[s/v Jedi]

I'm sick of it for now but finished the first halyard tonight and took a picture

7 turns uncovered, 11 turns covered.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Jedi, thanks for documenting this . Beautiful work.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

There is a standard Brummel locked splice but if you look carefully you will see that there is a second splice around the thimble. This was invented by Evans Starzinger for use with a low friction ring.

Just to set the record straight, I found the first reference to this was made by a member on Sailing Anarchy, well before Evans updated his Load Testing document.

Just one comment, the base of a thimble is not smooth. Abrasion may be an issue using a buried grip on a thimble. Or have you somehow modified the thimble?

SWL

[sea-bee]

I am so envious of the beautiful work that is being shown on these threads lately. I have bought a set of fids and have spent hours trying to follow the instructions for a simple eye splice but just simply can not get a big enough fid down the cover to be able to feed the core through. I have tried it with 6, 8 and 10mm braided rope, and have the same problem with all of these. Any suggestions about how to get started?

[Dockhead]

Beautiful work!

I took a rather different approach when I did my halyards, however.

First of all, I sized them not to 20% of breaking load, but much bigger than that. Because the issue with halyards is not breaking strength, but STRETCH. Stretch of a given type of material is a mostly linear function of the % breaking strength, so double the breaking strength and you halve the stretch. So I sized mine according to the maximum size which would easily fit my gear and be reasonable to handle.

Secondly, I chose double braid, a racing grade with SK78 inside, 12mm. This makes the halyard bulkier and heavier, and a racer would surely strip the cover for the last part, but the cover protects from UV and chafing. I just didn't want bare uncovered dyneema going around blocks up at the masthead, around other gear, and running down through the mast where you can't see it easily. Plus, single braid frazzles in the sun -- that would just make me nervous.

My case is different as I have higher loads than Jedi -- single much taller mast, and carbon laminate sails, which are pickier about halyard stretch. YMMV depending on what your particular case demands of your halyards.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Guys, thanks for the tips on the splice! I'll do some bosunry later. And SWL, do you have a link/links to much of the splicing databases which you at times reference? Including the cool knots, & splices that you & some others seem to continually be developing.
I sure would love to take a peek at your sailing fav links list!!!

Okay, I know that the halyards are already made, so the following is somewhat moot, but... please indulge me. And to be clear: I ain't meaning to step on any toes with the following commentaries/info.

If one looks at the load on the halyard from the halyard winch alone, not including sail loadings, etc. It's pretty safe to say that a boat this size will have a 50:1 winch (easily), if not significantly larger (& probably a powered one). So take that 50:1 x 50lbs user input x 80% efficiency = 2,000lbs. Which is the max safe working load for 6mm Amsteel Blue, non? And with a bigger winch it'd be quite easy to exceed this. I surely know that I have

Looked at from the perspective of wind loadings only, such a boat (Deerfoot 64) probably has a 600sqft mainsail, & 600sqft mizzen. Which, in 30kts of wind, you're then looking at 2,500lbs of sheet load per sail (not including anything added by the halyard winch, etc.). Then throw in a 5:1 safety factor & you're at 12,500lbs as the ground level starting point here.

Let's say worst case the halyard has to take both of these loads at the same time, then something a lot bigger (stronger, & less stretchy) is warranted. Plus she's a high RM boat, so the loads on all corners of the sails will be pretty high from that POV. And ultimately it's a boat's righting moment that determines these loadings. Split rig, or otherwise.

Particularly if you consider that on rare occassions, one main (or mizzen), possibly reefed, along with a jib, will get enough of a shove from the wind to heel the boat over to at least 45deg. if not further. So you have to size her running rigging based on this.

So the flaws in my above reasoning would be ???
Besides which 3/8" Warpspeed (6mm Amsteel blue core) is at times marginal for halyards on 40' racers. This may be somewhat due to such boats having higher aspect ratio mains, which I believe increases halyard loads vs. low aspect ratio mains, such as the OP’s. But still, it's a reality, & the loads on a 68'er's rigging are a lot higher than on a 40'er.


EDIT (after researching this topic):
Note that the harder you make a line work, the shorter it's life. Much of this due to internal friction, which comes from chafe created by lines stretching, thus causing the rope’s fibers to rub against themselves, internally. And the lower stretch the line, such as Dyneema vs. Polyester for example, the less this stretch, & thus, chafe. Which is why high modulus lines tend to last longer than old school lines of comparable breaking strength.
The same is also true regarding stretch, chafe, & line lifespan when you upsize the rope for the task at hand. SIC. Think about how a rubber band heats up when you stretch it. Then insert the word "halyard", or "sheet" where it says "rubber band".

Were it me spec’ing such halyards, based on the boat’s size (Righting Moment), I’d go with a minimum of something like 12mm Warpspeed, 10mm Dyneema such as Amsteel Blue, or similar sizes in a Vectran blend, etc. This based on my experiences racing big boats: in this case from 40’ers to 80’ Maxi’s. Where it’s quite common for me to be in charge of the halyards when we’re under sail, & the ship’s bosun’ as well (amongst other duties).
And the above rec’s are ones with which New England Ropes agrees -> http://www.neropes.com/uploads/tx_tx...og_2017_LR.pdf

After reading SV Jedi’s posts above, I was curious to see some other sources on halyard loadings. Both scientific, & semi. Below are some of the links to a few of the better sources. Not that I agree with all of them, as in my experience some of them are flat out wrong. But… it was an interesting edification.
For example, the (Lewmar) halyard sizing chart on pg.372 in Brion Toss’s book agrees with me, though his website/forums don’t seem to. As found here -> Proper sizing main halyard - SparTalk

And if you want to get into the geometry & math of things… -> https://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-a...-halyard-loads

Keep in mind too that every time you come off of a wave, the loads on a halyard (& other rigging) change suddenly, & dramatically. Thus the safety factors involved. As due to the flexing of the mast, & the stays, along with the changing shapes of the sails, and the boat itself, the rigging gets pushed pretty hard. Ergo the norm of a 4:1 or 5:1 safety factor in running rigging.


Dockhead: I don't know that your halyard loads are necessarily higher than sv Jedi's, as he's got a hell of a lot of righting moment, given that his is such a large boat. And that in general, RM increases geometrically with boat size, much as does displacement (& costs). Plus, almost without question, his sails are fairly high tech as well. Meaning something other than Dacron, & most likely laminated like yours are.

sea-bee: For me, the biggest help for me in terms of splicing By Far, was picking up a couple of Brion Toss's splicing wands. Along with some extra tip loops for them (which you can DIY mfd.). And getting a lot of hands on time using them in one of his splicing classes. Plus picking up his, & Margie's books surely helped too. Especially as that was in the pre-internet, pre-Youtube days.

You can buy the wands, or in a pinch, make'em yourself. And you can likely purchase some time from a good rigger to show you how to do the most common splices. Meaning having him walk you through doing most of them a few times. And via using various techniques & tools. As for this kind of thing, naught beats experiental learning.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

. . . [COLOR=navy]Dockhead: I don't know that your halyard loads are necessarily higher than sv Jedi's, as he's got a hell of a lot of righting moment, given that his is such a large boat. And that in general, RM increases geometrically with boat size, much as does displacement (& costs). Plus, almost without question, his sails are fairly high tech as well. Meaning something other than Dacron, & most likely laminated like yours are. . .

I'm only guessing, but the Sundeer 64 has about the same displacement as my boat, and has less beam (15' vs 16') and less draft. The Sundeer has less ballast carried less far down (fin vs bulb keel). The mainmast of the ketch rig Sundeer is much shorter than mine. Why do you think it has so much RM? Looks like quite a bit less RM than my boat, to me.

Nick says the halyard loads on his boat are like those of a 45 foot sloop, and that sounds right to me.

The Sundeer is an iconic design, in my opinion. I love the tradeoff of length to get LWL, getting fineness in the bargain, which allows great speed from the modest rig and draft. Things like modest halyard loads are proof of the elegance of the design. If I ever have enough money for a next boat, which will be metal and custom built, many of these points will be picked up in the design.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

......And SWL, do you have a link/links to much of the splicing databases which you at times reference? Including the cool knots, & splices that you & some others seem to continually be developing.
I sure would love to take a peek at your sailing fav links list!!!

I will do that when I have some time on my hands again next week. In the meantime, in my opinion Samson Rope have the best splicing instructions (and general pdfs about rope characteristics, lockstitching etc) that I have found available online.

I am giving members Alan Mighty and Juho a bit of a hand looking at best practice for splicing double braid polyester, so stay tuned

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

[COLOR=black] . . . Were it me spec’ing such halyards, based on the boat’s size (Righting Moment), I’d go with a minimum of something like 12mm Warpspeed, 10mm Dyneema such as Amsteel Blue, or similar sizes in a Vectran blend, etc. This based on my experiences racing big boats: in this case from 40’ers to 80’ Maxi’s. Where it’s quite common for me to be in charge of the halyards when we’re under sail, & the ship’s bosun’ as well (amongst other duties).
And the above rec’s are ones with which New England Ropes agrees -> http://www.neropes.com/uploads/tx_tx...og_2017_LR.pdf

Unciv -- what's your opinion on single vs double braid, for halyards? Do you think I'm being paranoid about using single braid, on cruising boats?

Single braid of course has a lot of advantages -- lighter, smaller, and cheaper (for a given strength), easier to splice. I use it all over my boat, but I replace it often because it dries out, frazzles, and starts to look scary, after about two years in the sun, in my experience.