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Old 06-05-2022, 00:55   #121
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

On the subject of “capturing” soft shackles, I find the technique generally useful.

I have just attached an old one to a bowline (I didn’t want to fuss with putting an eye splice in the double braid). It took seconds to set up:
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Old 06-05-2022, 00:58   #122
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Is that a Bowline with an extra turn?

TS
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Old 06-05-2022, 01:05   #123
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudorsailor View Post
Is that a Bowline with an extra turn?

TS
It’s a Bowline with a Yosemite finish. In this case not for extra security, but because it neatly puts the end lying along the standing end and because it neatly reduces the length of the tail. I often do this if the bowline will not be retied anytime soon.

SWL

PS If doing this and a high sudden load is expected, make sure the Bowline is not tied loosely. Snug it up well. I think a plain Bowline is better in that application, but again, dress it well. I have had a bowline capsize on me when I failed to do this. It luckily still held.
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Old 06-05-2022, 05:13   #124
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
On the subject of “capturing” soft shackles,
related - in some applications, it is useful to make the soft shackle as two pieces. Each piece has an eye on one end, one piece has stopper knot and other piece has slip eye.

the pieces can be threaded on a line or cow hitched (or directly spliced) to hardware (like headboard or clew, etc).
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Old 06-05-2022, 10:23   #125
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
related - in some applications, it is useful to make the soft shackle as two pieces. Each piece has an eye on one end, one piece has stopper knot and other piece has slip eye.

the pieces can be threaded on a line or cow hitched (or directly spliced) to hardware (like headboard or clew, etc).
I have been keen to try this out, but just haven’t found an application yet . They can be made quite short if a Diamond stopper is used.

For anyone interested, Allen Edwards L-36.com website presents a mass of ideas such as this on how to use UHMWPE.

I have presented the above option, as any old Kohlhoff style soft shackle you have lying around can be made captive using the technique.

SWL
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Old 06-05-2022, 10:47   #126
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Hi Y'all,

That's what I was initially proposing to use for the chain attachment soft shackle, and using a larger size line for the stopper knot so the known weak point at the knot wouldn't apply (the loop size is limited by what will pass through the chain).
BTW, both the Admiral and I have found that leaving a short, whipped end sticking out if a Diamond knot makes it easier to fish the knot thru the loop - especially when wet & icky in the dark

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Old 16-05-2022, 02:55   #127
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Nice one.

Another big advantage of having the snubber on deck is won’t get marine growth on it. I cut my fingers on mine a few days ago. It’s a pain to clean it too. I’ll see if I can find a way to route the line centrally along the roller.
No cleaning needed .
A few more photos of the set up are attached.

SWL
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Old 16-05-2022, 04:42   #128
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
No cleaning needed .
A few more photos of the set up are attached.

SWL

I like it. Another advantage is you ought not to get salt water on your hands. The snubber rope could be kept salt water free.
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Old 16-05-2022, 05:38   #129
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I like it. Another advantage is you ought not to get salt water on your hands. The snubber rope could be kept salt water free.
Only if there are no waves breaking over the bow at anchor .

That is actually when the system shines. When we had 10+ metres of snubber out in the water it would tangle in the chain, effectively shortening the snubber dramatically. It then took ages to untangle so it was a slow process when it came to leaving the anchorage. Also it was super hard if we had been unexpectedly caught out with the conditions and wanted to let out more chain.

SWL
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Old 16-05-2022, 10:07   #130
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Hi Y'all,

OK, I'm finally aboard (on the hard, alas) and, after doing all the necessary spring setup stuffe (freshwater system, zincs, paint, etc.) I've started working on an on-deck snubber setup.
First, I think I will need a single LFR to redirect the line to the roller, so I built my first Bullseye Strop:


I hadn't yet whipped and cut off the loose ends from the diamond knot here. The line is 4mm SK-75 and its under maybe 500lb of tension here.

Here's where the bullseye goes out on the bow - the line I'm using for setting this up is actually my mast-climbing safety line - nice and bright orange polyester.


And here it is looking aft - yes, its riding in the groove where the cabin house meets the deck. while it comes close, it doesn't actually touch anything but smooth fiberglass.


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Old 16-05-2022, 13:48   #131
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartleyg View Post
Hi Y'all,

OK, I'm finally aboard (on the hard, alas) and, after doing all the necessary spring setup stuffe (freshwater system, zincs, paint, etc.) I've started working on an on-deck snubber setup.
First, I think I will need a single LFR to redirect the line to the roller, so I built my first Bullseye Strop:


I hadn't yet whipped and cut off the loose ends from the diamond knot here. The line is 4mm SK-75 and its under maybe 500lb of tension here.

Here's where the bullseye goes out on the bow - the line I'm using for setting this up is actually my mast-climbing safety line - nice and bright orange polyester.


And here it is looking aft - yes, its riding in the groove where the cabin house meets the deck. while it comes close, it doesn't actually touch anything but smooth fiberglass.


Hartley
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Hi Hartley

A few questions and comments:

Are you replacing the orange polyester with nylon in the final system?

Will the portion going over the bow have any chafe protection?

I may be wrong, but I think that the snubber sawing back and forth on the cabin top will damage it. Under high load the snubber feels as hard as concrete and it moves constantly as it stretches and contracts in the gusts. Ours can change in length by about a metre.

It is hard to tell from your photo, but the Bullseye weave looks a little odd. Below I have enlarged your photo and added an image of how it should look.

SWL
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Old 16-05-2022, 14:44   #132
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

SWL,

In order

Yes, the orange line was just to try things as it was long enough and easy to lay hands on. I intend to make the snubber in 2 or three pieces - as you do, with a piece of heavy Dyneema through the LFR and over the roller. I have about 45-48 inches to spare inside the LFR for the snubber to stretch without the joint going thru anything. I was considering using a short piece of dyneema at the aft end (where it connects to the aft cleat) as it has to work around the very end of the base for a turning block. That end won't move much, even in nylon, however. I understand your concern about the deck - my thinking is that the only place where there is significant pressure against the cabin house is back aft, where the motion is less. But if it looks like a problem, I can always make a couple more bullseye strops and move it outboard

Yes, the weave IS a little odd - one leg had gotten flipped over on the backside when I took the picture - I discovered this when I took it apart - I should have re-shot the pictures I may make another one for practice anyway. I need to get warmed up by making a couple soft shackles first, tho.

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Old 13-06-2022, 08:23   #133
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Hi All,

OK,I've (sorta) completed our in-deck snubber - it appears to work, though I can't claim more than 25 knots of wind for testing yet

From Aft:


The 5/8" 3-strand nylon piece is 35 feet long, and is attached to the aft mooring cleat with a 10mm Dyneema strop and soft shackle. The black stain on the nylon is from the deteriorating rubber bumper under the sheet block.

From midships:


Note that the soft shackle attaching the nylon to the Dyneema strop is extra-long - the nylon was stretching further than i expected, and I didn't want the knot on the soft shackle being pulled thru the LFR. I will probably make up a longer strop when I have a chance and go back to a "normal" shackle for attachment .

And the attachment to the chain:


Note that we are NOT in the Hebrides! The wind here was maybe 8-9 knots, but at least you can see the soft shackle attachment. The shackle is 1/4" (6mm) red SK-75 with a small greenish opener pull and the chain is 3/8" G42.

EDIT to Add: The two rings doing the redirecting along the rail are NOT LFRs - they are "Rappelling Rings", which would seem to be strong enough (25 kN) and are MUCH cheaper than LFRs (I paid US $7.50 each from Amazon). They are attached to the toe rail with 4mm soft shackles.

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Old 13-06-2022, 13:48   #134
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartleyg View Post
Hi All,

OK,I've (sorta) completed our in-deck snubber - it appears to work, though I can't claim more than 25 knots of wind for testing yet

From Aft:
……..
The 5/8" 3-strand nylon piece is 35 feet long, and is attached to the aft mooring cleat with a 10mm Dyneema strop and soft shackle. The black stain on the nylon is from the deteriorating rubber bumper under the sheet block.

From midships:
…….
Note that the soft shackle attaching the nylon to the Dyneema strop is extra-long - the nylon was stretching further than i expected, and I didn't want the knot on the soft shackle being pulled thru the LFR. I will probably make up a longer strop when I have a chance and go back to a "normal" shackle for attachment .

And the attachment to the chain:
…….
Note that we are NOT in the Hebrides! The wind here was maybe 8-9 knots, but at least you can see the soft shackle attachment. The shackle is 1/4" (6mm) red SK-75 with a small greenish opener pull and the chain is 3/8" G42.

EDIT to Add: The two rings doing the redirecting along the rail are NOT LFRs - they are "Rappelling Rings", which would seem to be strong enough (25 kN) and are MUCH cheaper than LFRs (I paid US $7.50 each from Amazon). They are attached to the toe rail with 4mm soft shackles.

Hartley
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Hi Hartley
Thanks for posting the images.

I was caught out initially by just how much a nylon snubber can stretch under load. Ours will extend by about 10% so allow a generous amount for when the wind pipes up.

I am glad the system is not rubbing on your cabin top any longer, but keep an eye on your toe rail.

I hope it all works very smoothly for you. You must already be enjoying the ease of use of the system .

SWL
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Old 13-06-2022, 14:01   #135
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Hi SWL,

Yes, when the stretch is out forward (and sometimes underwater) it doesn't look like much, but when its sliding thru the ring, it is suddenly amazing

Yes, the route along the cabin top was quickly ruled out because I hadn't loaded the test setup enough, and the nylon wanted to creep up the cabin side and chafe on the ports, etc. I put on the first ring amidships, but then it got dirty rubbing on the jibsheet block. I guess I didn't put the picture of the second ring, but its maybe 10' aft of the midships one and keeps everything on the clear.

So far, it is working fine, and I even used the "quick to retract" feature when a thunderstorm came over the horizon a couple weeks ago. (pull it in about 5', removed the shackle, run out another 50' of chain and reattach) The admiral likes it, too!

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