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Old 28-02-2022, 16:17   #91
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

The last pdf was dated April 2021 and includes this note:

NOTE: I have been making the eye 8 x line diameter for the last few years and it sits beautifully in my opinion. These soft shackles are used for multiple purposes on board our 49’ aluminium cruising boat, including connecting sheets to headsail clews and the snubber to chain. Late 2020 I read a rare report of soft shackles on headsails “loosening”, the first report I have encountered. It was suggested that making the eye “tight” (but not too small) reduces this risk while only weakening the soft shackle “a bit”. Opinions clearly differ on the optimal size of the eye, although there seems to be consensus that it should be larger than the legs going through it, but smaller than the knot itself. I would personally not make the eye any smaller than capable of holding 6 lots of line, tightly cinched, but this is a personal choice.

I don’t know what the optimum eye size is, but I think it should be large enough to hold somewhere between 6 and 8 lots of line. This is just a personal opinion. It is just critical it is not too small or two large. I have looked at the eye appearance carefully under load (applied on a winch for quick analysis) and the sweet spot I think is being capable of holding somewhere between 6 and 8 lots of line. Not empirical analysis, but it certainly demonstrates how stressed the base of the eye looks if the eye is made smaller.

I can’t find the links to the latest pdf split in two (it could have been in one of several threads), so I will redo this and repost later today.

SWL
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Old 28-02-2022, 16:48   #92
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

While I updating this thread with some of the relevant information in other threads over the last few years, here is the link to the Vale for Brion Toss:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ed-235289.html
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Old 28-02-2022, 19:29   #93
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
mm has a listed break load of 1.3 tons (Stu, don’t crucify me for the units), and 230% of this is 3 tons.
Would that be British of US tons? (1,016.047 kg or 907.1847 kg - or perhaps a US "metric ton" aka a tonne which is 1000kg since you are talking about metric units for the diameter)
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Old 01-03-2022, 01:07   #94
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
The last pdf was dated April 2021 and includes this note:


I can’t find the links to the latest pdf split in two (it could have been in one of several threads), so I will redo this and repost later today.

SWL
Can I make a request for a version with small pictures so that I can print it out on less than 12 pages for each part????

Thanks

TS
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Old 01-03-2022, 05:59   #95
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Tudorsailor View Post
Can I make a request for a version with small pictures so that I can print it out on less than 12 pages for each part????

Thanks

TS
Hi TS
The size is frustrating me too. My tools for putting together pdfs are limited (as are my skills) and this document has already consumed many, many hours of my time. I only attempted compiling this to make it easier for someone than wading through scattered information.

All the photos are in this thread so if anyone has the skills and time to improve on the format, this would be very welcome. Something I can modify when I have anything to add would be ideal.

SWL

The document is in 2 parts as the forum size limit is 2mb:
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Old 01-03-2022, 06:04   #96
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Would this table be helpful in the instructions? Have i got the numbers right?



I know that one can work it out oneself........

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Old 01-03-2022, 07:00   #97
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudorsailor View Post
Would this table be helpful in the instructions? Have i got the numbers right?



I know that one can work it out oneself........

TudorSailor
Firstly, I would change the word “noose” to “eye”. I am guilty of having used the term noose in the past and it conveys entirely the wrong message. I eliminated the word “noose” in the last couple of documents.

The very minimum length is very simply 250 x line diameter (add more if you are not skilled creating the stopper). So column 2 is correct. BUT, it is not easy to work with the minimum length unless you are skilled at tying the Brion Toss Button. Allow extra in the early stages.

The minimum bury is 30 x line diameter so the last column is correct too.

A “lock” is not actually required at all so no distance is allowed for this in the minimum total length. I just find it a helpful addition once the soft shackle is much longer than the minimum.

The total length of the eye is roughly:
2π x square root of [8 x (radius line squared)]

So the distance from the tip of the eye to the base is:
π x square root of [8 x (radius line squared)] giving the following in your table:

3 13
4 18
5 22
6 27
7 31
8 36

The distance from the base of the eye to the “lock” is better if generous. It is easier to pass the stopper through the eye if the eye is fairly big so I tend to make this around 20 x line diameter. For very long shackles I either increase this or add another single pass, effectively creating a second “lock”. It is just to stop the legs flapping about in a disconcerting way.

Just trying to describe all this makes me realise why I have resisted displaying fixed tables .

For anything longer than the minimum, the easiest way to work out the totally length of line needed is:
2 x the total length of soft shackle you need + whatever length you require to tie the stopper (this depends on skill level). I find there is always enough left for the final bury if I do this.

SWL
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Old 01-03-2022, 10:05   #98
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Hi TS
The size is frustrating me too. My tools for putting together pdfs are limited (as are my skills) and this document has already consumed many, many hours of my time. I only attempted compiling this to make it easier for someone than wading through scattered information.

All the photos are in this thread so if anyone has the skills and time to improve on the format, this would be very welcome. Something I can modify when I have anything to add would be ideal.

SWL

The document is in 2 parts as the forum size limit is 2mb:
I have converted the pdf back to Word. I then reduced the picture size. I then saved as .doc I think it is all ok. Certainly you can now edit it. Is this OK? If you want the document with original resolution, then PM me

TS

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Old 01-03-2022, 12:51   #99
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudorsailor View Post
I have converted the pdf back to Word. I then reduced the picture size. I then saved as .doc I think it is all ok. Certainly you can now edit it. Is this OK? If you want the document with original resolution, then PM me

TS

TS
Hi TS
Many thanks.
The above documents are for an old version, but I can use these as an excellent basis next time I need to make any additions/alterations.
I will then also combine the two documents before uploading the new version here, as they are both small.

Much appreciated.
SWL
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Old 02-03-2022, 19:52   #100
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

While I was looking for the latest pdfs I attached somewhere on CF last year, I came across this post that illustrates the “locks” that I incorporate for handling purposes. They are a single pass of one leg through the other, but they are placed in an opposing direction to the previous pass, effectively creating a “lock”. The lock is not required, but just stops the legs flapping around disconcertingly when the soft shackle is not under load.

They are a very simple thing to do and are difficult to get wrong if a little care is taken not to pierce the strands, so unlike burying one strand in another I don’t think the added “complexity” has the potential to affect strength at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
This is my current method of constructing high strength soft shackles:

Short ones where the bury reaches or almost reaches to base of the eye are left Kohlhoff style.

For medium length ones I add a crossover about 20 line diameters away from the base of the eye, which stops the legs from flopping around individually while not under load (I find that disconcerting more than anything).

Extra long soft shackles have an additional crossing added as shown below:
Attached Images
 
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Old 04-03-2022, 01:43   #101
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

As I cannot PM SWL, I am posting this on this thread.

I have taken the liberty of combining the two documents into one. In that way I can make a soft shackle for real starting with a length of dyneema! I have compressed all the photos.

For my own obsessiveness I included the measurement guide

I hope that this OK and helps if you want to update

TudorSailor
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File Type: doc High strength soft shackle construction combined.doc (180.0 KB, 50 views)
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Old 04-03-2022, 02:35   #102
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudorsailor View Post
As I cannot PM SWL, I am posting this on this thread.
I had the same problem when I tired to answer a question she posed in a PM.


SWL - how can we get hold of your privately?
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Old 04-03-2022, 03:56   #103
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Hi TS and Stu
I am very sorry I am not accepting PMs. Some abusive private message upset me terribly several years ago and I closed off access then. It was either that or stop participating here entirely.

TS thanks for downsizing the instructions. That is very helpful and I will use it as a basis for future updates. For anyone using the document just be aware that it is based on a fairly old pdf, not the latest version I linked a few posts back. Also I would personally exclude the table from the document, as the minimum amounts were given for the smallest soft shackle with no room for any crossover and with the tails only long enough to tie the stopper if fairly experienced. HMWPE is slippery and beginners will find it difficult to work with the minimum length. They will then find they have cut the line too short. My notes explained this, but the table doesn’t.

Have fun making these everyone .

SWL
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Old 26-03-2022, 07:26   #104
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Thanks for all the great notes on this. I made my first and have a suggestion for other first timers. Definitely do try the button a couple of times with different colored lines. You don’t have to set it, just tighten enough that you get a sense of the dressing process and that it looks correct. Then, when you are ready to do your first with on piece of dyneema, run a bit of light whipping twine or thread of contrasting color in and out of one leg. For me I did the “blue” leg. Each of my stitches were about an inch apart. No knots on either end of the thread, just long tails. Before you dress it down too far, pull the thread out. I also used different colored tape on the ends and marked the blue leg at the tape with marker.

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Old 26-03-2022, 10:46   #105
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

PS. Don’t skimp on the amount you leave for the button. 10” seems like a good amount minimum. It is really just an issue on the smaller line such as 5/32 where the multiplier leaves a tail that is tricky for the novice to manage.
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