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Old 14-12-2020, 08:57   #76
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbinbi View Post
Could you comment on this version, done by 'the rigging doctor'. It seems much simpler. There is no burying the tail, so I don't know how much that decreases the strength. Maybe I wouldn't use this for attaching my bridle to my anchor, but to attach a turning block to a padeye for a screecher? Or do you believe this will have very little strength?
Edited to add: Scrap the following, watching the video more closely, this is a “Lover’s knot”, not a Diamond. It looks like a smaller knot, which I think is less good. I have not seen any load testing data, so I cannot comment on the strength of this stopper. Some knots slip disastrously in Dyneema at under 50% line strength.
Also, the general technique shown does not seem particularly careful so, personally, I would be wary of following Rigging Doctor’s method.

If you want something simpler than the Button Stopper, try the Diamond, which I discuss below.

—————-

That is a soft shackle made with a Diamond knot, in this case Kolhoff style without any central buries in the legs, which is the simplest and least prone to errors, so I think it is excellent place to start for anyone not experienced in making these. This is the original very first design of soft shackle that was designed over a decade ago.

Comments regarding the Diamond knot NOT THE ONE RIGGING DOCTOR USES:
If well made, the strength of the Diamond knot version has been cited as being around 170-180% of line strength (the “high strength” version is around 230-240%). If you are new to making soft shackles, then this is a good place to start, as the Diamond knot is relatively easy to tie. There are a multitude of YouTube videos available showing how to tie this knot.

If 170% line strength is adequate for your needs, then simply bump up the line size used.
Unfortunately if attaching soft shackles to chain, there is very little room to push a soft shackle through, so line size cannot be bumped up. Some people have overcome this issue by poking a loop through the chain, then attaching the loop to the bridle with a soft shackle. Doing this, line size for the soft shackle is not restricted.

Regardless of which style of soft shackle you make, there are no shortcuts to pretensioning. The link I gave in my last post gives detailed instructions on how to do this well.

Note:
- The eye size needs to be a bit smaller for the Diamond knot version, as only two legs, not 4, need to go through it.

- I would not trim the tail ends short, even after pretensioning. Leave a stump that will eventually become soft and fluffy. Commercial ones sometimes trim and melt the ends onto the top of the stopper to make it smoother, but this tends not to be done on ones made for use in the shipping industry, where standards need to be higher.

SWL

PS If trying to decide what line diameter you need, keep in mind that safe working load for dyneema is only 1/5 of line strength.
Often line diameter is bumped up simply for ease of handling. For me, 6mm is a sweet spot both for ease of handling and ease of construction.
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Old 14-12-2020, 14:45   #77
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Edited to add: Scrap the following, watching the video more closely, this is a “Lover’s knot”, not a Diamond. It looks like a smaller knot, which I think is less good. I have not seen any load testing data, so I cannot comment on the strength of this stopper. Some knots slip disastrously in Dyneema at under 50% line strength.
Also, the general technique shown does not seem particularly careful so, personally, I would be wary of following Rigging Doctor’s method.

I didn't bother to watch it
When I saw that "paintbrush" he was holding, I decided that I didnt want to learn anything he was teaching
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Old 14-12-2020, 16:35   #78
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I didn't bother to watch it
When I saw that "paintbrush" he was holding, I decided that I didnt want to learn anything he was teaching


It’s not as pretty or as effective as a button knot but it’s MUCH easier to tie. I think I’d have to tie a lot of button knots before I’d be able to throw away my step by step directions and even then it’s about 50/50 that I screw it up where to put the two ends down through the middle. But the diamond knot is really straightforward knot and even though it’s not as elegant, it does the job if you’re in a hurry to turn a length of Dyneema into a soft shackle.

Fortunately for me, a good friend and sailor has fallen into the habit of making the Brion Toss soft shackle and various fancy zipper pulls as he’s watching tv in the evening and can almost tie them in his sleep now and he keeps me so well supplied so now I have more really nice soft shackles than I can find a use for. At this rate I’ll probably NEVER manage to completely memorize and tie the Brion Toss Button Knot without referring to SWL’s excellent instructions, but I think it’s an integral part of the most elegant and effective soft shackle I’ve ever seen.
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Old 15-12-2020, 02:49   #79
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

I have tied the knot Rigging Doctor is using and personally, I would not use this for any high load or critical applications.

It is simply two overhands intertwined. Some of these combinations are not to be underestimated, but this is not one of the “Super 4” family and even the “Super 4” slip in dyneema.

The Lover’s knot is also very small and significantly does not have a nice flat base like the Diamond knot or the Brion Toss Button. There is little area for the eye to latch onto.

The knot is critical in the designs where the ends do not come back through the knot to be buried. The Diamond knot itself will be the failure point in a well made shackle of that design, as will the Lover’s Knot.

Maybe one reason it “works” for Rigging Doctor is that he uses line that is oversized so slippage will occur at loads higher than the soft shackle will experience, and also he seems to create a tight noose, reducing the risk of slippage. Again, this will severely reduce strength, but an oversized line would compensate for this.

I would not use Rigging Doctor’s method for anything other than minor tasks such as tying up loose coils of rope etc.

SWL

The first image shows a Diamond knot and what Rigging Doctor refers to as a Lover’s Knot. Note the small size of the latter and lack of a flat base. In my opinion this is not a good choice even if the knot does not slip under high load.

The second shows the construction of the Lover’s knot.
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Old 15-12-2020, 03:21   #80
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I didn't bother to watch it
When I saw that "paintbrush" he was holding, I decided that I didnt want to learn anything he was teaching
This highlights one of the pitfalls of the internet--anybody can call himself an expert and post stupid or wrong information, and lead a bunch of people astray. It was harder to do in the age of print, though not unheard-of.
I don't know where I'm going with this, though I feel I could moralize for hours. Anyhoo--be careful where you get your data.
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Old 15-12-2020, 03:46   #81
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
This highlights one of the pitfalls of the internet--anybody can call himself an expert and post stupid or wrong information, and lead a bunch of people astray. It was harder to do in the age of print, though not unheard-of.
I don't know where I'm going with this, though I feel I could moralize for hours. Anyhoo--be careful where you get your data.
One nice thing about CF is that there are so many members who will chime in and debate the issue when they think rubbish is posted, and in addition provide helpful information about better alternatives. I have learned a lot that way . These discussions can also work as a form of brainstorming where one idea (even stupid ones sometimes) can lead to another, resulting in further improvement or innovation. Rapid progress can then be made. The whole design for “high strength” soft shackles using a button knot was formulated in just this way on Sailing Anarchy (members highly experienced in slightly different areas working together). This is the very best thing about forums.

One problem with giving yourself a title such as “Rigging Doctor” is that people assume you have expertise. There have been 38 comments made on that YouTube video, all praising the method, many saying they will use it.

One person even commented: “Love it. I am a sailing instructor and I think that next training session I am going to try and teach this to all my colleagues.”


SWL
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Old 15-12-2020, 16:05   #82
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
One problem with giving yourself a title such as “Rigging Doctor” is that people assume you have expertise.

I generally regard anyone assigning themselves such titles as being on a par with the ones who call themselves "Captain". i.e. almost invariably self-opinionated jerks with limited knowledge.
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Old 23-10-2021, 17:50   #83
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
One nice thing about CF is that there are so many members who will chime in and debate the issue when they think rubbish is posted, and in addition provide helpful information about better alternatives. I have learned a lot that way . These discussions can also work as a form of brainstorming where one idea (even stupid ones sometimes) can lead to another, resulting in further improvement or innovation. Rapid progress can then be made. The whole design for “high strength” soft shackles using a button knot was formulated in just this way on Sailing Anarchy (members highly experienced in slightly different areas working together). This is the very best thing about forums.

One problem with giving yourself a title such as “Rigging Doctor” is that people assume you have expertise. There have been 38 comments made on that YouTube video, all praising the method, many saying they will use it.

One person even commented: “Love it. I am a sailing instructor and I think that next training session I am going to try and teach this to all my colleagues.”


SWL

I know this Post/Thread is a bit old, but
I've seen several methods using an overhand knot... not as pretty, but look to be effective.

BTW, thanks for putting the time into this thread. it's been extremely helpful

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Old 26-10-2021, 07:48   #84
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron E View Post
I know this Post/Thread is a bit old, but
I've seen several methods using an overhand knot... not as pretty, but look to be effective.

BTW, thanks for putting the time into this thread. it's been extremely helpful
I am very glad you found the thread useful .

The overhand knot method was first described by Evans Starzinger.

I have not made many of these, but here are a few tips that were not stressed in the linked video:

- Make sure the eye at the end (the so called «*noose*») is not too small (take great care using the same technique as I have described above)
- Make sure the two small eyes are as small as possible (only just big enough to push the other eye through them) so there is no risk of the knot collapsing under load
- Make sure the lengths of the legs are identical once the little eyes are formed. The size of the main eye will alter otherwise and if it ends up too small to hold a minimum of 4 x the line diameter, the strength will plummet.

If well made, the strength of the shackle should be roughly the same as one using a Brion Toss button. Both are about 30% stronger than ones made with a Diamond stopper.

SWL
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Old 26-10-2021, 10:23   #85
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I am very glad you found the thread useful .

The overhand knot method was first described by Evans Starzinger.

I have not made many of these, but here are a few tips that were not stressed in the linked video:

- Make sure the eye at the end (the so called «*noose*») is not too small (take great care using the same technique as I have described above)
- Make sure the two small eyes are as small as possible (only just big enough to push the other eye through them) so there is no risk of the knot collapsing under load
- Make sure the lengths of the legs are identical once the little eyes are formed. The size of the main eye will alter otherwise and if it ends up too small to hold a minimum of 4 x the line diameter, the strength will plummet.

If well made, the strength of the shackle should be roughly the same as one using a Brion Toss button. Both are about 30% stronger than ones made with a Diamond stopper.

SWL
Will do and thanks again for all the work Seaworthy Lass!
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Old 28-02-2022, 03:49   #86
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
And this is Part 2:
The instructions are great. However I wondered about making the noose big enough for 8 strands but not too big if I dont have a spare line to fold to make 8 strands
So I did a bit of calculating
For 6mm line, a hole to take 8 strands has a diameter of 20mm. This has a circumference of 63mm. So when collapsed to have two stands, the cross over has to be 31mm from the tip of the line.
Maybe this is too precise but it is at least a guide

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Old 28-02-2022, 14:30   #87
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudorsailor View Post
The instructions are great. However I wondered about making the noose big enough for 8 strands but not too big if I dont have a spare line to fold to make 8 strands
So I did a bit of calculating
For 6mm line, a hole to take 8 strands has a diameter of 20mm. This has a circumference of 63mm. So when collapsed to have two stands, the cross over has to be 31mm from the tip of the line.
Maybe this is too precise but it is at least a guide

TudorSailor
Thanks for trying to quantify this. Some people may find it easy marking out a measurement rather than stuffing some line in.

A few comments:
I think you have rounded off you first calculation too much, resulting in errors later.
6mm line (if round) has a cross sectional area of π x 3 squared
8 lots has a cross sectional area 8π x 3 squared
A circle with this area has a radius of square root of [(8π x 3 squared)/π] which is simply the square root of 8x9. This equals 8.5 mm roughly.

So the diameter of the eye needs to be 17 mm not 20 mm.
This is a circle with a circumference of 53 mm not 63 mm.

When using the method of simply encircling 8 bits of line and seeing how big the circumference needs to be, the line cannot be compressed completely by hand and there will be air gaps so the circumference estimated ends up being larger than calculated.
Given I have been usually using 6 lots of line not 8 lately (I think somewhere between 6 and 8 is the sweet spot, see my comments in the latest pdfs) then using 8 lots in the calculations may be about right.

ie Simply encircling 6 lots may be about the same as using 8 lots in calculations.

When I am back on board and have access to 6 mm I will see how the two measurements compare.

SWL

PS You dont need spare line to make 6 or 8 strands. Just fold over the ends of the length you are using several times and encircle that to determine the size of the eye needed.
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Old 28-02-2022, 15:09   #88
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Thanks for trying to quantify this. Some people may find it easy marking out a measurement rather than stuffing some line in.

A few comments:
I think you have rounded off you first calculation too much, resulting in errors later.
6mm line (if round) has a cross sectional area of π x 3 squared
8 lots has a cross sectional area 8π x 3 squared
A circle with this area has a radius of square root of [(8π x 3 squared)/π] which is simply the square root of 8x9. This equals 8.5 mm roughly.

So the diameter of the eye needs to be 17 mm not 20 mm.
This is a circle with a circumference of 53 mm not 63 mm.

When using the method of simply encircling 8 bits of line and seeing how big the circumference needs to be, the line cannot be compressed completely by hand and there will be air gaps so the circumference estimated ends up being larger than calculated.
Given I have been usually using 6 lots of line not 8 lately (I think somewhere between 6 and 8 is the sweet spot, see my comments in the latest pdfs) then using 8 lots in the calculations may be about right.

ie Simply encircling 6 lots may be about the same as using 8 lots in calculations.

When I am back on board and have access to 6 mm I will see how the two measurements compare.

SWL

PS You dont need spare line to make 6 or 8 strands. Just fold over the ends of the length you are using several times and encircle that to determine the size of the eye needed.
Just so you know, I worked out the numbers using a website called engineering toolbox https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/s...le-d_1849.html
I have been back again and the smallest diameter that will take 8 circles of 6mm is 18.1mm, so I had too much air between my strands! This has a circumference of 56.8.


Anyhow we are now splitting hairs!
I was wondering about making a list of key measurements for each line size. I guess 4mm would be the smallest anyone might use??

I did not see that you are now using 6 lines. I wonder if the pdf I have are the latest.
Thanks for you time
TS
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Old 28-02-2022, 15:29   #89
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudorsailor View Post
Just so you know, I worked out the numbers using a website called engineering toolbox https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/s...le-d_1849.html
I have been back again and the smallest diameter that will take 8 circles of 6mm is 18.1mm, so I had too much air between my strands! This has a circumference of 56.8.


Anyhow we are now splitting hairs!
I was wondering about making a list of key measurements for each line size. I guess 4mm would be the smallest anyone might use??

I did not see that you are now using 6 lines. I wonder if the pdf I have are the latest.
Thanks for you time
TS
In this case the fault with using the Engineering Toolbox calculations is that it applies to rigid circles. HMWPE compresses.

I have started using 3 mm a lot. I have not used this much previously due to issues with handling. The eye in any of the common designs is too small/soft to handle easily and gets damaged when fingernails are used. However, strengthening the eye is not very onerous (as long as you are not trying to make huge numbers commercially) and solves this problem.

3 mm is cheap as chips when bought in volume and there are so many tasks on board where the SWL of this is adequate eg for the Stealth 12 I am currently using, 3 mm has a listed break load of 1.3 tons (Stu, don’t crucify me for the units), and 230% of this is 3 tons. With the eye strengthened this will be even higher. SWL is generally conservatively taken as 1/5 of this.

I will hunt up the latest pdfs (2 as the size is too big to post here as one).

I will also hunt up the discussion on the strengthened eye and post a link here.

Information is scattered on so many threads here on CF that it unfortunately tends to get lost. Chat forums have many advantages, but this is one drawback.

SWL
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Old 28-02-2022, 15:49   #90
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Re: Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

This is the link to “Reinforced super strength soft shackles” (a mouthful for lack of a better name ). The discussion started at post 34:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-250411.html

Below is the one in 3 mm I have with me. Super easy to handle, super strong, super useful and super cheap in 3 mm. Perhaps we should just call them Super Soft Shackles . I think the benefit is dramatic for 3 and 4 mm, a bit useful for 5 mm and too cumbersome for bigger diameters. The appearance is deceptive. The eye fits very snuggly:
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