In-mast vs in-boom furling

[nomisfarms]

Check out Shaffer inboom furler, the best I've seen so far, this is what I'd install on my boat, good luck

[a64pilot]

My boat came with the in boom furler, I seriously doubt I would have paid for it, I don’t believe it’s $3 to 5K, I’ve been led to understand it’s more like $20K or maybe more.
But again, I didn’t pay for it directly, it’s my belief that it didn’t add much or any value to my boat on its resale either, that was money lost so to speak.

[saillr]

One other thing I meant to say about the systems. Profurl offer a version with the drum at the for'd end of the boom. This makes the space between the luff and the mast excessive. Leisurefurl solved that problem and is a popular system designed in NZ and marketed here by another company. I think its biggest drawback is having a huge hole cut in the front of the mast to accommodate the drum. Also there is a universal joint inside the mast to transfer the rotation to the drum. The universal joint was a big problem for them years ago. I assume they have fixed this. Still the fact that you have to cut big holes in an otherwise strong mast is not appealing. The Schaeffer system is better by having the drum located at the aft end of the boom and so no large holes in an otherwise good mast. I thought the idea a little clumsy at first but it has worked out very well for me on an Island Packet 40.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by saillr

One other thing I meant to say about the systems. Profurl offer a version with the drum at the for'd end of the boom. This makes the space between the luff and the mast excessive. Leisurefurl solved that problem and is a popular system designed in NZ and marketed here by another company. I think its biggest drawback is having a huge hole cut in the front of the mast to accommodate the drum. Also there is a universal joint inside the mast to transfer the rotation to the drum. The universal joint was a big problem for them years ago. I assume they have fixed this. Still the fact that you have to cut big holes in an otherwise strong mast is not appealing. The Schaeffer system is better by having the drum located at the aft end of the boom and so no large holes in an otherwise good mast. I thought the idea a little clumsy at first but it has worked out very well for me on an Island Packet 40.

I believe that the hole through the mast is in fact about one inch in diameter and the universal joint is behind the mast in line with the goose neck pin. With the bearing in the mast for the stainless shaft it could be argued that the strength is not compromised, but possibly enhanced.
Cheers from a Leisurefurl owner.

[Medved]

Originally Posted by saillr

I have tried to stay out of this but there are times when you just have to say something.
Alita 49DS says -
"In mast has another huge benefit : when furled away the sail is well protected from the elements so is likely to last longer."
So much BS but I assume the person has no idea what boom furling really is. The sail is well protected in both cases but the outer exposed portions of the sail at the slot do need protecting from UV. My Schaeffer system has a little cover that slides over the slot and covers completely the sail. Not sure how they protect the in-mast sail while its furled. I doubt I would call this a "Huge Benefit".
Tillsbury makes a very good point. One of the major things in my mind is weight aloft. The in-mast type mast is much heavier because of the extra beef required to compensate for the slot cut in the entire length of mast. Also when at anchor the entire sail is still aloft so additional weight causing more rock and roll at anchor.
Several have suggested that performance is their main thing about one system over the other. I say simplicity should be the main thing. When you are solo and tired and the conditions are getting tough the last thing I worry about is the main. in my conventional sailing it was always the other way around. Handling that big sail with heavy boom etc in a blow at night was a concern especially short handed. Most long distance sailing is off the wind (or hopefully so). I have done about 20,000 miles solo on my Schaeffer system and it is comforting to know that you can get a few winks and if you wake with the wind rising it is easy to reduce sail without coming head to wind. Just ease the pressure on the sail and roll it in.
Leach control is surprisingly done with halyard tension. The sails are cut quite flat and the draft is reasonably controlled with halyard tension. The foot is fixed it is true and that would be nice to have variable but what the heck! we are cruising not racing. I have the angle fixed by a solid vang and it has not been adjusted in ten years and I still get great even rolls. Again the performance guys are going to shake their head but ease up - its cruising.
Also the other major factor is the jam. It may never come but when it does it is usually at the worst possible time. Everything going wrong. Night - dark - You need to get rid of that sail thrashing and the boom trying to take everything in site out of action. You know the story if you have been there. You will get a jam someday. At least with boom furling you can drop the sail and lash it.

What kind of boat do you have if you do not mind me asking? Also, do you need special sails for in-boom and can you reef continuously like in-mast, or do you have special parts of sail that you need to furl to?

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Excellent question.

I've looked at a lot of cats in my area, lazy jacks, yes. None of them had any furling systems, in boom, or in mast.

The local dealer stated "cats wont have an in mast furler because of the sail shape".

I'm sure the sails could be flatter, but the large roach (leech), requires battens which makes in mast problematic.

I'm waiting to buy one for that reason.

That's because in the 90s and early 2000s Cats moved away from being head sail driven to using the main and having a tiny genoa. The trend more recently has been to reduce the main and enlarge the genoa again, but we're never going to get back to having genoas 3x the area of the main like they were in the 70s,80s

I think any cat with an aft-set mast will work well with a furling main. That being said, I recently came across a Prout Esprit 36. Never heard of it? No neither had I. It was designed by Prout before they went bust, but never entered official production. Some were made though under supervision.

The one I cam across had a modern in-mast furling system, and a forward mast. I believe the mast height had to be increased from the standard 11m in order to gain sufficient drive.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Medved

What kind of boat do you have if you do not mind me asking? Also, do you need special sails for in-boom and can you reef continuously like in-mast, or do you have special parts of sail that you need to furl to?

You must have a sail that is cut and made to fit the boom.
You can furl or unfurl as much as you like. It’s exactly like a window shade, taking in a reef amounts to rolling in as little or as much of the sail that you want to, nothing else, nothing to tie etc, just roll up a little.

When hard on the wind, I need to furl a few feet to get my helm perfectly trimmed. I know that spot by having marked the Halyard, when that mark is beside of the line clutch that is my reef point that trims the sail.
Of course downwind usually I want as much sail as I can get and put it all up.

Of course an in boom and in mast furl different parts of the sail, an in boom drips exactly like a normal sail, from the foot, and in mast does not

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by Medved

What kind of boat do you have if you do not mind me asking? Also, do you need special sails for in-boom and can you reef continuously like in-mast, or do you have special parts of sail that you need to furl to?

I have a LeisureFurl on a 50 footer and the sails are cut for the particular boom. You have a serial number and the company keeps all the particulars. The sailmaker just took the serial number and made the sail according to the specs and it was perfect. Having said that it looks just like any other sail except for a little different foot attachment.

I have used all three systems and will say that the in-mast was the easiest to use but I always worried about jams since I had one early in my use. The in-boom has been flawless and I think (for LeisureFurl, at least) the comments about being particular about boom angle and stuff are a little overblown. We just mark the topping lift (we usually don’t even move it but you can to get better sail shape when needed) and when ready to furl we just pull in the boom vang until everything is sort of tight and furl. You can control the tightness of the furl and the straightness of the furl with the tension on the halyard but it seems to be cosmetic only since it works fine whether you let it fly or hold it tight. You can furl downwind and we do reef this way when needed.

You do need electric winches but then most in-mast systems use electric to furl as well so probably a wash except for the in-boom you also get to use the electric for the jib sheet and other uses instead of just the main.s

You can control the shape of the sail with proper furling tension. After hoisting the sail you pull back down on the furler to act as an out haul to flatten the sail as needed. Works pretty well. Of course letting it out does the opposite.

All in all I would probably opt for in-boom if building a boat but would not mind an in-mast at all if buying one. I will leave the slab reefers to the younger crowd. :-)

Jim

[Medved]

Originally Posted by jkleins

I have a LeisureFurl on a 50 footer and the sails are cut for the particular boom. You have a serial number and the company keeps all the particulars. The sailmaker just took the serial number and made the sail according to the specs and it was perfect. Having said that it looks just like any other sail except for a little different foot attachment.

I have used all three systems and will say that the in-mast was the easiest to use but I always worried about jams since I had one early in my use. The in-boom has been flawless and I think (for LeisureFurl, at least) the comments about being particular about boom angle and stuff are a little overblown. We just mark the topping lift (we usually don’t even move it but you can to get better sail shape when needed) and when ready to furl we just pull in the boom vang until everything is sort of tight and furl. You can control the tightness of the furl and the straightness of the furl with the tension on the halyard but it seems to be cosmetic only since it works fine whether you let it fly or hold it tight. You can furl downwind and we do reef this way when needed.

You do need electric winches but then most in-mast systems use electric to furl as well so probably a wash except for the in-boom you also get to use the electric for the jib sheet and other uses instead of just the main.s

You can control the shape of the sail with proper furling tension. After hoisting the sail you pull back down on the furler to act as an out haul to flatten the sail as needed. Works pretty well. Of course letting it out does the opposite.

All in all I would probably opt for in-boom if building a boat but would not mind an in-mast at all if buying one. I will leave the slab reefers to the younger crowd. :-)

Jim

Do all the lines lead back to the cockpit as it does with in-mast?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Medved

Do all the lines lead back to the cockpit as it does with in-mast?

Mine do, there are only two lines, the Halyard raises the sail and the furling line puts it away, that’s it.
They both should be in clutches though, yes you can use a cleat, but a clutch is just easier.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

this is a no brainer......

If you have in-boom furling, and you have a screw-up somewhere, you can always pull the mainsail down by hand..
screw ups usually happen at night in 50 knots of wind....not the place or time to be worrying about reducing sail....
in-mast furling is a disaster waiting to happen in my opinion.....a slight miscalculation on the rotation and tension of the in-mast furler and the main will bind up and not go roll up anymore....hardly what you want when the wind is howling...sometimes your only option is to completely unfurl the sail...practice doing this at night in 50 knots of wind....oh yeah...you will probably be heeled over 45 degrees....add that to the complexity...
a few more things to consider, in-mast mainsails are usually formed without a roach, a so called-hollow roach, though I have seen vertical battens on some in-mast furlers to provide some additional sail area. If a batten shakes loose while furling or unfurling....good luck to you.

keeping a mainsail furled inside a mast also adds weight to the mast....you'd be surprised at how much that can add to over turning moment...
you may need to furl the main during a rainstorm, which means it will be wet, adding to the weight and complexity of furling a wet sail..
I have experienced both....I like neither.....but mostly I dislike the in-mast concept.
I think it's a fad to sell new boats imo and a nod to all lines being led to the cockpit.....blah, convenience should not outweigh common sense....pure ********.....go to the mast and pull the mainsail down by hand....you can see and control what is happening.

lordy, lordy, lordy.....the modern day sailor is becoming a slave to " modern" convenience....electronics out the wazoo....in-mast furlers....all lines led to cockpit...and a myriad more things.....dockside queens....these boat hardly ever leave the dock in anything over 5 knots ...

ok, my rant is over.....good luck to you all....see you on the water...maybe ??

What rot! Our 1982 Bristol 45.5 came with inmast so it is hardly a new idea and we did leave docks (and anchorages) a few times in over 5 knots while doing a 40,000 nm circumnavigation. Our Monitor vane Morley was the most important bit of kit we had but the main furler was number 2. You could refer or unreel in two minutes or so and this encouraged you to experiment with more or less sail to see how the boat would go. Being able to really reef, like two the equivalent of five reefs was great for balancing the boat downwind to take the load off Morley.

On those rare occasions when it is blowing like snot you can still be overpowered with your second or even third reef in a conventional rig. Your choice then is to hook up your trysail which is always fun to do when it is really blowing (You do have a trysail of course?). We had one and never felt the need to use it. We did have about 4' of main out on a few occasions.

Can't we just talk about anchors and avoid this rancorous debate?

[gonesail]

i crewed on an IP40 with in boom furling. it took 2 or 3 people to furl it and that was at the end of the day when you wished you could just drop it. letting it out was also a challenge if the wind was up. god forbid if you got it jammed which did happen according to the captain.

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by Medved

Do all the lines lead back to the cockpit as it does with in-mast?

Yes. Both on the same side and in a clutch so all you do is put the halyard on the electric winch and the furler on the other to put the sail up and reverse the process to take it down. It is easy but not as easy as just pushing the button to take the sail in and out with in-mast furling.

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by gonesail

i crewed on an IP40 with in boom furling. it took 2 or 3 people to furl it and that was at the end of the day when you wished you could just drop it. letting it out was also a challenge if the wind was up. god forbid if you got it jammed which did happen according to the captain.

I usually do this by myself but again, I have an electric winch so it is fast and fairly simple. I put the furler on the electric and the halyard with one wrap on the other winch and turn the boat into the wind enough to let the sail luff and hit the button. Keeping tension on the halyard just enough to keep the wrap sort of tight in the boom. Putting it up is the reverse. No going on deck or multiple people involved.
I guess is you have let the topping lift out you would need to go forward and pull it back up. I usually don’t so I get to miss that step but for someone who is very concerned about sail shape that is another step that may be necessary.
Jim

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by jkleins

I usually do this by myself but again, I have an electric winch so it is fast and fairly simple. I put the furler on the electric and the halyard with one wrap on the other winch and turn the boat into the wind enough to let the sail luff and hit the button. Keeping tension on the halyard just enough to keep the wrap sort of tight in the boom. Putting it up is the reverse. No going on deck or multiple people involved.
I guess is you have let the topping lift out you would need to go forward and pull it back up. I usually don’t so I get to miss that step but for someone who is very concerned about sail shape that is another step that may be necessary.
Jim

You could also run your topping lift to your cockpit. Ease it and let it drape around the sail.