In-mast vs in-boom furling

[Lynette Evans]

$10000 approx time and cost to take mast down and cost to fix a bearing. We can fix without having to take down mast.

[Lynette Evans]

We are a 43’ cat. Mast is approx 13metres tall, all wiring is within mast. $1000 each way just for crane. We are is sydney australia and our motto here is boat stands for being out another thousand. Lol

[Lynette Evans]

Plus slip and yard costs.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Lynette Evans

Plus slip and yard costs.

Lynette, why would you need to slip the boat for this job? Seems an unnecessary expense to me.

Jim

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Lynette, why would you need to slip the boat for this job? Seems an unnecessary expense to me.

Jim

Is Sydney... is different there.. or so I have heard....

[El Pinguino]

Saw a mast having to come out for the same job in PM a few years ago.... don't think it cost that much...however the 'In-mast' fanboys will say this never happens....

Speaking of which..... about 90% of Westerly Oceanlords that come on the market have in-mast. Now they were built mid 80's to mid to late 90's so are they original or retrofit? Dunno...

However if buying one I am thinking one would have to factor in pulling the mast and doing a full overhaul plus replacing the baggy dacron main..... and replacing with a fancy high tech no stretch one.... fair bit of expense on a boat you have just bought....

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Lynette Evans

We are a 43’ cat. Mast is approx 13metres tall, all wiring is within mast. $1000 each way just for crane. We are is sydney australia and our motto here is boat stands for being out another thousand. Lol

Lynette, I don't know whereabouts in Sydney you are but perhaps you need to search for reputable and reasonable service providers, they do exist.

[nilespf]

Originally Posted by Lynette Evans

$10000 approx time and cost to take mast down and cost to fix a bearing. We can fix without having to take down mast.

Lynette,
I have a 2002 Charleston Spar (CS) version of in-mast furling on my Bene 361.
If your too far along and dug in to spending the 10K+ so be it. This is my story. Pls understand all this is being written at the risk of stating the obvious.



With the CS system the foil (the shaft that the sail wraps around) can be separated just above the furling screw (the furling screw has the in-haul line attached to it). The upper swivel (has the main halyard attached to it) will slide down the foil and out the bottom to the mast extrusion cavity only after the furling screw has been removed. Yes, the mast as a minimum has to be lifted about a meter above the deck so as to provide the clearance for the furling screw to drop out of the bottom. With the furling screw the lower bearing support comes out. As you probably know, the lower bearing supports everything vertically and the swivel does nothing other than center the foil within the furling cavity.


I cannot imagine the lower bearing failing in that it is probably a roller and as a minimum a double race ball bearing assembly. It has only some shear forces on it (only with the sail deployed) and always under compression to support the weight of the foil and sail before you tension the halyard. So for it's life it actually has very little compression force on it. It could be argued that depending how much tension you put in the halyard, it may not even see the weight of the furler assembly.



If not too late, get the sail off the foil and you should be able to rotate the foil by hand easily. If you have any luck, the lower bearing needs some attention but short of the races being shot it may only need some high quality lube. The swivel will look like crap (Delrin bushings worn slightly) but also may only need some lube. I replaced the swivel for about a buck fifty. If the operation of the furler is smooth then I'll bet your sail is blown out of shape.



It goes without saying it sounds like you need to get out of that marina. I shared a $600 (up here in Rock Hall Md.) crane bill with another owner so we split the bill. Also I un stepped the mast so the crane was not tied up for any significant time.


Good luck

[Lynette Evans]

Not going to spend $10k, we are foregoing in mast system and putting in slugs and reef system. So will no longer be an in mast furling system. So we can manually winch up main sail and reef to boom. Cheapest option so we can get cruising and less hassle.

[nilespf]

Originally Posted by Lynette Evans

Not going to spend $10k, we are foregoing in mast system and putting in slugs and reef system. So will no longer be an in mast furling system. So we can manually winch up main sail and reef to boom. Cheapest option so we can get cruising and less hassle.

What do the slugs slide in?

[Lynette Evans]

Bolt rope track.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Speaking of which..... about 90% of Westerly Oceanlords that come on the market have in-mast. Now they were built mid 80's to mid to late 90's so are they original or retrofit? Dunno...

Vast majority were original in-mast. Mine was in 96. Slow and baggy. As per most at that time it was reliable as long as you followed the rules. The main certainly never overpowered the boat!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Saw a mast having to come out for the same job in PM a few years ago.... don't think it cost that much...however the 'In-mast' fanboys will say this never happens....

Speaking of which..... about 90% of Westerly Oceanlords that come on the market have in-mast. Now they were built mid 80's to mid to late 90's so are they original or retrofit? Dunno...

However if buying one I am thinking one would have to factor in pulling the mast and doing a full overhaul plus replacing the baggy dacron main..... and replacing with a fancy high tech no stretch one.... fair bit of expense on a boat you have just bought....

Are there "fanboys" about? I'm not sure.


Objectively speaking -- in-mast furling adds cost. The gear and the special mast is quite expensive compared to a box full of slugs or slides, it requires maintenance which costs money or at least time, and bits of it wear out, which are expensive to replace. And yes, if you need to get the foil out, you need to pull the mast. In-mast furling is not KISS, and that's a significant argument against it.



So is it worth it? I dunno -- more money for less performance -- obviously that's not for everyone. But sometimes I am quite glad to have it. Like yesterday, which was a day of blustery, unstable weather, entering one large, rocky Scandinavian harbor, hard on the wind on a starboard tack, rocks to starboard, and here comes a ferry around the corner (which I had seen on AIS but expected to turn to go somewhere else),and at the very same time a sudden massive blast of wind, over 40 knots, and me with all plain sail up. Head off and I'm on the rocks; up and I'm under the ferry. I was awfully awfully glad to be able to get that mainsail reduced in a jiffy and in all that wind and without changing course, which I couldn't.


True story; yesterday. I'm not sure what I would have done on my old boat. Blow the halyard I guess, but that would have been a big mess. As it was it was quick and drama-free, maybe a minute to halve the area of that comparatively massive mainsail, without leaving the cockpit or changing course. This is why many people like this system.



Ping, if you do buy an old boat with in-mast furling I think you are correct about what you would need to do with. Buying an old boat you're going to want to replace the standing rigging anyway, right? With the mast down anyway, it's pretty simple to pop the masthead truck off, pull the foil out, replace all the bearings, replace the friction part of the endless line winch, etc. I don't know about Australia, but in the UK for a Selden system I guess that would cost you less than £500 if you have the mast down anyway, and if you do the work yourself. Then you're good for another 50,000 miles or 20 years.



Also, I would be careful to evaluate the TYPE of the system -- the technology was improved a lot and some of the older systems don't work that well. The Selden and Hood systems seem to be fairly bulletproof; some others might be less so. You also want to be sure that the mast slot is wide enough to take vertical battens. Some of the early ones were quite narrow.



And you will be glad to have a laminate mainsail. But you won't be buying that just for the in-mast furling -- you will be awfully glad to have that in any case. Good sails are the best money you can spend on a boat, in my opinion, whatever kind of reefing you have. And a small bonus -- mainsails for in-mast furling are cheaper than a comparable full batten main of the same material, because they don't need all the reef points and other laborious details, and they last longer because they are stored inside the mast without creases and protected from the weather.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nilespf

Lynette,
I have a 2002 Charleston Spar (CS) version of in-mast furling on my Bene 361.
If your too far along and dug in to spending the 10K+ so be it. This is my story. Pls understand all this is being written at the risk of stating the obvious.



With the CS system the foil (the shaft that the sail wraps around) can be separated just above the furling screw (the furling screw has the in-haul line attached to it). The upper swivel (has the main halyard attached to it) will slide down the foil and out the bottom to the mast extrusion cavity only after the furling screw has been removed. Yes, the mast as a minimum has to be lifted about a meter above the deck so as to provide the clearance for the furling screw to drop out of the bottom. With the furling screw the lower bearing support comes out. As you probably know, the lower bearing supports everything vertically and the swivel does nothing other than center the foil within the furling cavity.


I cannot imagine the lower bearing failing in that it is probably a roller and as a minimum a double race ball bearing assembly. It has only some shear forces on it (only with the sail deployed) and always under compression to support the weight of the foil and sail before you tension the halyard. So for it's life it actually has very little compression force on it. It could be argued that depending how much tension you put in the halyard, it may not even see the weight of the furler assembly.



If not too late, get the sail off the foil and you should be able to rotate the foil by hand easily. If you have any luck, the lower bearing needs some attention but short of the races being shot it may only need some high quality lube. The swivel will look like crap (Delrin bushings worn slightly) but also may only need some lube. I replaced the swivel for about a buck fifty. If the operation of the furler is smooth then I'll bet your sail is blown out of shape.



It goes without saying it sounds like you need to get out of that marina. I shared a $600 (up here in Rock Hall Md.) crane bill with another owner so we split the bill. Also I un stepped the mast so the crane was not tied up for any significant time.


Good luck

Great advice; but I would not personally shy away from having the mast out, as there are a ton of other useful things you can do with it down.



Last time I had my mast out -- 75 feet of it -- it cost me £800 in and out (so £400 each way), including unstepping and stepping and dealing with complex three spreader standing rigging. The job requires two cranes and gang of riggers. Smaller boats should be much much simpler.



I think it's a good thing to have the mast out every few years and I'll have mine out again over the coming winter. How it can cost $10,000 I can't even imagine. Some shopping around may be in order.

[daletournier]

I've had masts pulled in Oz and it just dosent cost 10k, try approx 2-3k, also I doubt your pulling it while out of the water therefore I dont understand the need to haul.

If your paying 10k to replace a bearing in the IMF your being ripped off, it's not a complicated system.

And Ping your "Fanboy" comments are insulting, some of us are experienced in using these systems and are entitled to have an opinion that differs from yours. Your experience seems limited in this area yet I dont see anyone ridiculing you due to this.