In-mast vs in-boom furling

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

That’s what I mean by you’re being dismissive. Actually, it was 4 times:
One being an ARC, another sailing to Hawaii from the west coast and the other two Newport to Bermuda races. I didn’t count the miles involved. That you dismiss the opinions of others is telling.

In every instance, the mast furler proved problematic regardless of sail material and with various experienced offshore sailors. When they worked properly, we considered ourselves lucky.

I find this very hard to believe. Four different systems, well maintained with experienced off shore sailors? ....yep, I'm dismissive of this, has zero cred IMO, just to hard to believe based on what I see daily. I cruise with off shore sailors that use inmast furling exclusively, most I've been around in recent years are circumnavigating and I haven't seen or heard of anything closely resembling your above statement.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I find this very hard to believe. Four different systems, well maintained with experienced off shore sailors? ....yep, I'm dismissive of this, has zero cred IMO, just to hard to believe based on what I see daily. I cruise with off shore sailors that use inmast furling exclusively, most I've been around in recent years are circumnavigating and I haven't seen or heard of anything closely resembling your above statement.

This thread seems to be populated by two extremes. One side says in-mast furlers are problem free, easy to use and any problem is just dumb operator error and simple to recover from - kind of nervana. The other side says everytime I get offshore with one everything goes Tango Uniform. I'm pretty sure the reality is somewhere in between.

Having seen enough cruising boats come in after a passage with active issues with their in-mast furlers I just can't buy the trouble free line. On the other hand I've seen enough boats come in with serious standing rigging problems and I'm still using standing rigging.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Paul L

This thread seems to be populated by two extremes. One side says in-mast furlers are problem free, easy to use and any problem is just dumb operator error and simple to recover from - kind of nervana. The other side says everytime I get offshore with one everything goes Tango Uniform. I'm pretty sure the reality is somewhere in between.

Having seen enough cruising boats come in after a passage with active issues with their in-mast furlers I just can't buy the trouble free line. On the other hand I've seen enough boats come in with serious standing rigging problems and I'm still using standing rigging.

I'm middle of the road and couldn't care less what other people choose to do.

For me? No....
Its all about risk minimisation.... you really don't want this sort of thing happening when you are coming in hot onto a lee shore just before dark with just you and the cook.... and experience tells me that if something can happen then it will happen..


'It came time to furl the sail, and I couldn't understand why it was so hard. The effort varies greatly according to angle and how much wind is in the sail -- and this is a drawback, because it makes it harder to feel when something is going wrong. Then the splice in the furling line burst.


As it turns out -- the spare main halyard got sucked into the furling mechanism somehow -- unseen by me because it was behind the preventered-out main. I guess I had left it too loose. And jammed it dead. Luckily I was fully crewed with competent sailors, and working together we managed to work it out,'

That is from here 'In-Mast Furling Nightmare' .. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...re-217716.html

Coastal sailing tucked up in a cosy marina each night I'm sure its fine...

I'm still scouring the Norwegian coast looking for all these yachts with in mast furling.....

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

This thread seems to be populated by two extremes. One side says in-mast furlers are problem free, easy to use and any problem is just dumb operator error and simple to recover from - kind of nervana. The other side says everytime I get offshore with one everything goes Tango Uniform. I'm pretty sure the reality is somewhere in between.

Having seen enough cruising boats come in after a passage with active issues with their in-mast furlers I just can't buy the trouble free line. On the other hand I've seen enough boats come in with serious standing rigging problems and I'm still using standing rigging.

Hi Paul, I don't think any of us are saying they are problem free, like you I've seen all sorts of problems on cruising sailboats, some serious ,most not so serious, absolutely everything on a cruising boat can break.

What I'm not seeing is an alarming amount of IMF issues, infact 2 in 10 years, and I'm around all sorts of boats everyday, this is why I have trouble with comments like "all 4 I've used had problems", these sorts of comments paint a wrong picture for people reading that don't know what's real and what's not.

There is a large amount of cruising sailboats successfully using IMF's, surely if they were as bad as some make out the market would reject them. The sheer numbers out there suggest they do their job well. Amel is the best example, decades of successful use.

You mentioned standing rigging, I worry more about that failing than my IMF and for good reasons.

I think the likes of DH and myself are more passionate about opposing fear mongering than we are pro IMF, for me that's what this is about, I don't sell IMF's and don't care if people purchase a boat with one or not BUT I do dislike alarmist misinformation by people with little experience regarding the topic.

Btw, I was next to a boat the same as yours yesterday, lovely boat.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I'm middle of the road and couldn't care less what other people choose to do.

For me? No....
Its all about risk minimisation.... you really don't want this sort of thing happening when you are coming in hot onto a lee shore just before dark with just you and the cook.... and experience tells me that if something can happen then it will happen..


'It came time to furl the sail, and I couldn't understand why it was so hard. The effort varies greatly according to angle and how much wind is in the sail -- and this is a drawback, because it makes it harder to feel when something is going wrong. Then the splice in the furling line burst.


As it turns out -- the spare main halyard got sucked into the furling mechanism somehow -- unseen by me because it was behind the preventered-out main. I guess I had left it too loose. And jammed it dead. Luckily I was fully crewed with competent sailors, and working together we managed to work it out,'

That is from here 'In-Mast Furling Nightmare' .. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...re-217716.html

Coastal sailing tucked up in a cosy marina each night I'm sure its fine...

I'm still scouring the Norwegian coast looking for all these yachts with in mast furling.....

You found a horror story, if we look we can find many of those stories about lots of things, "

don't buy a catamaran, one flipped of Sydney the other day", Cats aren't seaworthy.

don't buy an Oyster one lost its keel a few years back", they're dangerous.

don't purchase a yacht with stainless steel rigging, there are members here that have lost their rig,they aren't safe.

don't buy a free standing mast yacht, I know of a mast that broke in Malaysia

don't buy skeg ruddered yachts ,I know of a Malo that sank of the Seychelles due rudder skeg attachment, way to dangerous.

Don't buy a steel boat, I know of one that sank of Mayotte in 2017.

Don't use electronic charts, a race boat hit a reef in the Indian Ocean while using those charts, they're dangerous.

The list can go on and on, best ti stay at home I feel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

You found a horror story, if we look we can find many of those stories about lots of things, "

don't buy a catamaran, one flipped of Sydney the other day", Cats aren't seaworthy.

don't buy an Oyster one lost its keel a few years back", they're dangerous.

don't purchase a yacht with stainless steel rigging, there are members here that have lost their rig,they aren't safe.

don't buy a free standing mast yacht, I know of a mast that broke in Malaysia

don't buy skeg ruddered yachts ,I know of a Malo that sank of the Seychelles due rudder skeg attachment, way to dangerous.

Don't buy a steel boat, I know of one that sank of Mayotte in 2017.

Don't use electronic charts, a race boat hit a reef in the Indian Ocean while using those charts, they're dangerous.

The list can go on and on, best ti stay at home I feel.

That's it exactly.


I don't think anyone said that in-mast furling is "problem free" -- on the contrary, everyone I think has said that like any system on board it can break down, and needs to be maintained and operated correctly.



Nor do I think anyone said that this or that reefing system is the only right choice -- of course everyone should have what he likes, whatever that is.


What I am against is illogical stuff like the above, and categorical opinions based on prejudice unsupported by significant knowledge or experience.



All mainsail systems work fine when properly operated and reasonably well maintained. Otherwise, they wouldn't be sold. SVIllusion's stories are just ridiculous -- why would "experienced offshore sailors" continue to sail year after year with systems which worked so badly? Would you? Of course not. If it worked like that, you would ditch it in a second -- I sure would.


For actual statistical information I would suggest people try to find the surveys of gear breakages done after the various ARC rallies. As far as I understand, more than half of participants in recent years are using in-mast furling. This is a great test, because ARC participants are typically inexperienced coastal cruisers doing their first big offshore passage, in ordinary cruising boats. They break a lot. Do in-mast furlers figure high on the list of breakages? That's an objective question.

[Sand crab]

I was kayaking again in Gig Harbor, Washington yesterday. One boat that stood out was a ketch with roller furling in both masts. That setup looked much newer than the boat so someone paid big bucks to make it happen.

[Lynette Evans]

We have inmast furling system which decided to breakdown, simple bearing has gone. Unfortunately very expensive to fix as it requires mast to be taken down to get to the bearing, obviously along with rigging and electrics ie aerial, radar etc. we decided to change to on boom system no electrics no getting stuck and much cheaper. In process of getting reefing system put on main sail along with sliders to go up existing track. Also going to put in lazy jacks. $10000 vs $1500.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Lynette Evans

Also going to put in lazy jacks. $10000 vs $1500.

$10,000 to take down your mast and disconnect some cables?

Mast down here is about €200

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

$10,000 to take down your mast and disconnect some cables?

Mast down here is about €200

Mike, I was thinking "holy excrement" myself when I saw that figure as I have in mast furling. Think someone is ripping someone off somewhere with that quote.

Unstepping and stepping a mast shouldn't cost any more for in mast furling than a traditional mast and shouldn't take a yard more than an hour each way. Replacing the bearing on the furler shouldn't take long either, even if it is the mast top bearing rather than the main bearing at the base.

Hopefully with all my regular greasing the bearings should last ages. And when the rigging needs inspecting if the mast needs to come down I'll get new bearings fitted if needs be, along with any other mast top maintenance.

Keiron

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Lynette Evans

We have inmast furling system which decided to breakdown, simple bearing has gone. Unfortunately very expensive to fix as it requires mast to be taken down to get to the bearing, obviously along with rigging and electrics ie aerial, radar etc. we decided to change to on boom system no electrics no getting stuck and much cheaper. In process of getting reefing system put on main sail along with sliders to go up existing track. Also going to put in lazy jacks. $10000 vs $1500.

Hello Lynette, welcome aboard.

What sort of in mast did you have and how old was it?

and what was the $10,000 for ?

[guyrj33]

Originally Posted by Lynette Evans

We have inmast furling system which decided to breakdown, simple bearing has gone. Unfortunately very expensive to fix as it requires mast to be taken down to get to the bearing, obviously along with rigging and electrics ie aerial, radar etc. we decided to change to on boom system no electrics no getting stuck and much cheaper. In process of getting reefing system put on main sail along with sliders to go up existing track. Also going to put in lazy jacks. $10000 vs $1500.

Lynette;
Can you share information about the replacement slides you'll be using and where they fit?

[Lynette Evans]

Our sail maker is currently stitching onto our sails. He is also putting In two Rows of reefing holes. They are slugs as opposed to sliders. They have to be right size to fit and slide within current track in the mast so size will depend on Your track. A good sail maker should be able to determine this.

[Lynette Evans]

Boat was built in 1990.

[Lynette Evans]

Slugs fit within bolt rope track.