In-mast vs in-boom furling

[Kenomac]

Several modern Oysters were built with slab reefing for racing in the Oyster rallys. These boats require crew for the slab reefing to be used sucessfully, and when it comes time to sell thise boats.... they either sell for way over $100k less than comparably equipped Oysters, or they languish on the market.

The reason: Unless someone has full time crew on a boat above 60ft, slab reefing cannot be used, but an Oyster up to 67ft can be handled by a single person using hydraulic in mast and Reckmann hydaulic jib furling systems, which really opens up the resale market. A couple can handle the boat, or a couple with a single crew member.

[El Pinguino]

Interesting, it would seem that while the two largest boats in the HR range ..the 57 and 64 ..come with inmast furling the rest of their range **including all their boats between 40 and 50 feet** come standard with traditional slab reefed dacron sails .... from the HR spec sheets...
'Sails
Mainsail and working jib crosscut dacron in special Offshore quality by Elvstrøm Sails, Denmark. Two reefs in main, battens and coded sail bags.'.....

Spec sheets can be found in here.. https://www.hallberg-rassy.com/resou...g-a-new-yacht/ under the 'yachts' drop down.

With only two reefs in the main and no way of setting a storm jib I know what I'd be upgrading first...

The OP by the way is not in the market for a 60 foot yacht...
He 'Passed ASA 101 few weeks ago and scheduled 103/104 for mid Sep. I am still in my research phase as to which boat to go after. I will be sailing single handed or short handed, and really liked in-mast furling on a Jeanneau 440 I got a chance to sail.'........

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.......
...... But you can't dismiss it as some crap foisted on some unknowledgable newbies by boat makers.

Please point me to where I dismissed it as 'crap'...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Interesting, it would seem that while the two largest boats in the HR range ..the 57 and 64 ..come with inmast furling the rest of their range **including all their boats between 40 and 50 feet** come standard with traditional slab reefed dacron sails .... from the HR spec sheets...
'Sails
Mainsail and working jib crosscut dacron in special Offshore quality by Elvstrøm Sails, Denmark. Two reefs in main, battens and coded sail bags.'.....

Spec sheets can be found in here.. https://www.hallberg-rassy.com/resou...g-a-new-yacht/ under the 'yachts' drop down.

With only two reefs in the main and no way of setting a storm jib I know what I'd be upgrading first...

The OP by the way is not in the market for a 60 foot yacht...
He 'Passed ASA 101 few weeks ago and scheduled 103/104 for mid Sep. I am still in my research phase as to which boat to go after. I will be sailing single handed or short handed, and really liked in-mast furling on a Jeanneau 440 I got a chance to sail.'........

Perhaps, but nowhere are slab reefing boats over 40' actually depicted in the HR site, nor do you ever see them in Northern Europe.



Getting back to the OP --



In trying to understand whether in-mast furling is a viable option or not, I would suggest he take into consideration the experience of people posting various opinions. Certainly it's viable, and if he really likes it, that's what he should have.



However, if it's his first boat, and if it's a light and relatively sporty boat like that Jenn, and if he's sailing in mild latitudes -- I would suggest he at least consider slab reefing, which will give him better performance and get him familiar with handling a normal mainsail. It's what I would choose, personally, in a boat that size, for coastal sailing in mild latitudes.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Please point me to where I dismissed it as 'crap'...

I don't believe I accused you of that.

[El Pinguino]

In response to my post #252..

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's just a fact. If you see a boat in Northern Europe, made in Northern Europe, without in-mast furling, it's either (a) more than 20 years old; (b) smaller than 40 feet; or (c) a racer or racer-cruiser. During the last 20 years, in-mast furling has become the practically universal mainsail system in these waters, for cruising boats. Selden is one of the top three spar makers in Europe, I read somewhere that more than 90% of their masts are in-mast furling.


You are free of course to dislike it -- everyone has a right to like whatever he wants to, on the basis of whatever he wants. But you can't dismiss it as some crap foisted on some unknowledgable newbies by boat makers. ........

Three clicks on the Norwegian coast and look what we find... https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/pho...10970/#forward

from this northern European builder.. https://www.allures.com/bateaux/voilier/allures-45-9/

Fancy that.....

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Clearly, we have here some who think the ubiquitous problems with in-mast furling are always the result of poor seamanship, bad equipment/sails, some other excuse or simply dismiss the problems as trivial.

Au contraire, clearly, we have here some who think that in mast reefing is actually very good and their experience is based on many years of using the system.

Pete

[Kestrahl]

In New Zealand which is probably harsher coastal conditions than North Europe, in mast furling basically doesn't exist on locally built boats except for a handful with the old hood system. But in boom furling is very popular and produced locally by at least three manufacturers. That is just the way it went..
That said the boat building industry is basically dead now
Slab reefing with a winged boom and single line or double line on electric winches isn't to bad for shorthanded on big boats. We did one mainsail for a 60ft catamaran and just doing one for a 70ft catamaran.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

In response to my post #252..


Three clicks on the Norwegian coast and look what we find... https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/pho...10970/#forward

from this northern European builder.. https://www.allures.com/bateaux/voilier/allures-45-9/

Fancy that.....

Allures are not Northern European boats. They are built in France, where in-mast furling is fairly popular, but not universal (or nearly so) like in Northern Europe.

All the Allures I've seen (and they are lovely boats) have slab reefing. Amels (another heavy-duty, non-coastal boat made in France) have in-mast.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

In New Zealand which is probably harsher coastal conditions than North Europe, in mast furling basically doesn't exist on locally built boats except for a handful with the old hood system. But in boom furling is very popular and produced locally by at least three manufacturers. That is just the way it went..
That said the boat building industry is basically dead now
Slab reefing with a winged boom and single line or double line on electric winches isn't to bad for shorthanded on big boats. We did one mainsail for a 60ft catamaran and just doing one for a 70ft catamaran.

Different regions have their own customs.

I'm interested in the "winged booms", and I don't think it's off topic here. Pix?

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You said you have sailed three times with in-mast furling on another person's boat. I have sailed tens of thousands of miles with in-mast furling. Pardon me for being "dismissive" of categorical opinions based on such a small amount of experience. One should know what one does not know.


It would be as if someone had ridden three times in a car which was experiencing mechanical difficulties,...



.

That’s what I mean by you’re being dismissive. Actually, it was 4 times:
One being an ARC, another sailing to Hawaii from the west coast and the other two Newport to Bermuda races. I didn’t count the miles involved. That you dismiss the opinions of others is telling.

In every instance, the mast furler proved problematic regardless of sail material and with various experienced offshore sailors. When they worked properly, we considered ourselves lucky.

[Giro]

We would all better off to step back, take a deep breath and perhaps move on to another topic. One likes up, one prefers down, some like chocolate and others enjoy vanilla. Let’s get along sailors.

[a64pilot]

I didn’t know this was an anchor or gun thread

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

That’s what I mean by you’re being dismissive. Actually, it was 4 times:
One being an ARC, another sailing to Hawaii from the west coast and the other two Newport to Bermuda races. I didn’t count the miles involved. That you dismiss the opinions of others is telling.

In every instance, the mast furler proved problematic regardless of sail material and with various experienced offshore sailors. When they worked properly, we considered ourselves lucky.

After using all three systems over the past ten years, and now having two boats with Hood in-mast furling systems and being able to operate each singlehanded even on the 64ft boat.... I can’t even imagine what the problems you experienced must have been caused by other than operator error.

Can you be more specific in your criticism, what went wrong that caused the jam(s)... or did it actually jam with someone having to go up the mast to un-jam it on each of your four experiences? We’ve been specific in our comments on how to avoid jams through proper use. Roll sail towards the wind, sailcote, tension outhaul, etc.

Specifically... what went wrong on each of your four outings, other than you not liking the system?

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Different regions have their own customs.

I'm interested in the "winged booms", and I don't think it's off topic here. Pix?

I've seen a few different ones, from molded glass to the original boom with tube bars out each side. The idea is the sail falls onto the boom, and not off the side of it, being wide the sail has room to flake itself. The lazy jacks and bag attach to the wings on the boom. https://www.southernspars.com/spars/booms/