In-mast vs in-boom furling

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by daletournier

What if the different experiences are based on the different imast furlers that ones used?

I like mine alot ,this is due to I've had no problems regarding jamming. I was just on a Beneteau 44 center cockpit , I do not know what year. The owner hates his inmast, it jams regularly. It's a older Seldon rig and has a very narrow slot ,lucky to be 10mm. I looked at it and can easily see why he hates it.

The slot on my Sparcraft rig is approximately 25mm, my mates newer seldon rig also has a slot approximately 25mm wide, both of us have had no problems and both like inmast furling. The other guy hates inmast furling.

Maybe it's more accurate to say I like my inmast furler and he dislikes his inmast furler, rather than generalize that all inmast furlers are good or all inmast furlers are bad.

Bingo! I think you have got it here. Sailing all in-masts are the same is the same as saying all anchors or engines are the same. We had an ancient Hood system and it worked great. Can't comment on others since I have never used them.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by nilespf

Originally Posted by captainwoody

......The only value to main furling (with their current design issues) is if you are keeping it in the bay. Unfurling for short easy sails can be efficient.
In boom is safer than inmast. If the wind pipes up with inmast, it will not furl ... just when you need it the most. Inboom can at least be dumped on the deck when it fails.


"current design issues" thats enough for me, now I know you don't know what your talking about!!

I think you are talking out of your hat. There are numerous examples of people in this discussion who have/had in-mast and go far beyond the bay and are still alive and big proponents of in-mast. Not sure your definition of the wind piping up is but we had no, as in none, problem reefing our in-mast with winds in excess of 50 knots. Above this it would be storm jib or trysail or both.

Don't know about other manufacturers but with a Hood system you could take the sail and its fuller down if you really to, even with a jam. Never had to do it because we never had a bad jam and it did not look like a trivial undertaking but it was doable. BTW, never heard of any other Hood owners who had to do this either, I guess because the system worked as designed.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by AiniA

I think you are talking out of your hat.There are numerous examples of people in this discussion who have/had in-mast and go far beyond the bay and are still alive and big proponents of in-mast. Not sure your definition of the wind piping up is but we had no, as in none, problem reefing our in-mast with winds in excess of 50 knots. Above this it would be storm jib or trysail or both.

Don't know about other manufacturers but with a Hood system you could take the sail and its fuller down if you really to, even with a jam. Never had to do it because we never had a bad jam and it did not look like a trivial undertaking but it was doable. BTW, never heard of any other Hood owners who had to do this either, I guess because the system worked as designed.

I think you are being generous with that summation.

[LittleWing77]

Since my June 21st post, our Marine Services Department have had two more boats with in-mast furling come in with significant in-mast furling jams.

In the case of one of the two that we resolved, the inability to re-furl the sail was caused because the main is no longer as flat as it was when the owner bought the boat. The main (and boat - a 45' Beneteau) in question is only 4 years old, used for weekend sailing on Lake Ontario during our 3-month sailing "season". The owner says he's just going to buy a new main.

Of course I don't know the financial circumstances of anyone on this Forum, but my initial responses were in the spirit of the Medved's avoiding situations just like this. An entirely new main after only 4 years of relatively light sailing seems to me an entirely unnecessary financial outlay.

Best wishes,
LittleWing

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Since my June 21st post, our Marine Services Department have had two more boats with in-mast furling come in with significant in-mast furling jams.

In the case of one of the two that we resolved, the inability to re-furl the sail was caused because the main is no longer as flat as it was when the owner bought the boat. The main (and boat - a 45' Beneteau) in question is only 4 years old, used for weekend sailing on Lake Ontario during our 3-month sailing "season". The owner says he's just going to buy a new main.

Of course I don't know the financial circumstances of anyone on this Forum, but my initial responses were in the spirit of the Medved's avoiding situations just like this. An entirely new main after only 4 years of relatively light sailing seems to me an entirely unnecessary financial outlay.

Best wishes,
LittleWing

The boat probably came with a cheap dacron main. In order to remedy the issue, maybe the owner should spring for a DYS tri radial sail with sailcote and dyneema threaad from a reputable sail loft. https://www.dimension-polyant.com/po...ys-en/?lang=en

A penny saved isn’t always a penny saved... sometimes you get what you pay for.

[Happ]

I have previously posted in-mast furling is my least favorite of the 3 choices and I have sailed with all 3 systems. It occurred to me this morning that I read an article about how to furl one in one of the sailing publications. One of the points it made was when furling always be on starboard tack. The reasoning was if you look at the mechanism when furling you are rolling the sail up against itself instead of against the slot this creating less friction. As it happens I went cruising a few days later with some friends who had an in-mast system that was new to them. The first time we furled they turned it on the opposite tack. When we were done I mentioned the trick I had learned and they immediately challenged my suggestion and asked for the article. As luck would have it I had the link on my phone and sent it to them. They now use this suggestion.

Another post here suggested that a cheaper sail had stretched out creating a furling problem. I cannot challenge this having not seen the sail. I can say my friends had a heavyweight main designed specifically for offshore cruising by a Sailmaker in the NW who only builds sails for offshore sailing. I will say the workmanship was exquisite!

[S/V Illusion]

Clearly, we have here some who think the ubiquitous problems with in-mast furling are always the result of poor seamanship, bad equipment/sails, some other excuse or simply dismiss the problems as trivial.

Pride of ownership and/or the ability to rationalize virtually anything are the common denominator.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The boat probably came with a cheap dacron main. In order to remedy the issue, maybe the owner should spring for a DYS tri radial sail with sailcote and dyneema threaad from a reputable sail loft. https://www.dimension-polyant.com/po...ys-en/?lang=en

A penny saved isn’t always a penny saved... sometimes you get what you pay for.

In-mast furling is not by a long shot idiot proof, and should not be sold to beginners or to people who don't want to spend money on decent sails. Not less important -- people who don't thoroughly understand in-mast furling shouldn't be SELLING boats with in-mast furling -- the blind leading the blind, and that won't end well. In-mast furling works great when it's properly maintained and operated with reasonable skill, but without that it doesn't. That describes other systems on board, though, doesn't it? Sailing in general is not really for idiots.


Laminate sails and especially with Dyneema tafetta on them are really great for in-mast furling. The thin and flexible laminate rolls up beautifully, and the slippery dyneema (if you order that type of tafetta) really slickens up the whole system.


But also the system needs to be kept in shape. Just like a jib furling system can create problems like halyard wraps if you don't keep the forestay tensioned and/or don't keep the top swivel maintained, in-mast furling will also give trouble without proper maintenance.


It's very simple to lubricate the bearings, and this should be done every year. It takes maybe 5 minutes to do the halyard car and bottom bearing and winch, then you need to go up the mast to do the top swivel. Just do it every time you service your jib furling system.



It's also important to keep the foil properly tensioned -- not so tight that the bearing binds, but just barely tight enough so that you can't bang the foil in the mast with your hand. On a Selden rig, it takes 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver -- should be checked every time you have the mainsail down. This is the equivalent of maintaining forestay tension, for the jib.



And whatever sail you have, should not be allowed to get bagged out. If it sails poorly, it will furl poorly, with in-mast furling. If it sails well, it will furl well. So it doesn't absolutely have to be laminate, but laminate sails and in-mast furling were like made for each other. You also don't mind as much spending the money on laminate because the sail lasts so much longer when stored rolled up smoothly inside the mast and out of the sun and rain, rather than flaked with creases on the boom.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Clearly, we have here some who think the ubiquitous problems with in-mast furling are always the result of poor seamanship, bad equipment/sails, some other excuse or simply dismiss the problems as trivial.

Pride of ownership and/or the ability to rationalize virtually anything are the common denominator.

The difference is that some people understand and know something about the system based on a sufficient amount of actual experience, and others do not.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and certainly everyone is entitle to like or dislike whatever one wants to, but not all opinions are as valuable as others. Some opinions are mere prejudice.



I only have 20,000 or 30,000 miles of experience with in-mast furling and only in tough ocean conditions up to latitude 71N and with probably cumulatively weeks of sailing in Force 8 and above. I guess I've been lucky for 10 years and all those miles? Right -- believe that if you like. Some people love their own opinions more than any facts. You've got probably half of all UK sailors right behind me, and nearly 100% of people who sail excellent blue water yachts like Hallberg Rassy, Oyster and Amel.



I'm not selling in-mast furling and I have no "pride of ownership". I don't think it's the only good system. In fact at the moment I'm leaning towards a ketch rig with full batten main and mizzen for my next boat. But I don't like it when people trash talk in-mast furling without the slightest real knowledge about how it actually works, HOW to operate or maintain it, or what is good or bad about it.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Since my June 21st post, our Marine Services Department have had two more boats with in-mast furling come in with significant in-mast furling jams.

In the case of one of the two that we resolved, the inability to re-furl the sail was caused because the main is no longer as flat as it was when the owner bought the boat. The main (and boat - a 45' Beneteau) in question is only 4 years old, used for weekend sailing on Lake Ontario during our 3-month sailing "season". The owner says he's just going to buy a new main.

Of course I don't know the financial circumstances of anyone on this Forum, but my initial responses were in the spirit of the Medved's avoiding situations just like this. An entirely new main after only 4 years of relatively light sailing seems to me an entirely unnecessary financial outlay.

Best wishes,
LittleWing

So a boat with a stretched out baggy sail had a problem with the said sail. Surely that isn't surprising? A cheap dacron sail might last 10 years in terms of it still looking like a triangle, but it's probably shot in 12 months in terms of shape and performance.

[S/V Illusion]

You just demonstrated an example of being dismissive of mast furling criticisms based upon blaming it on the equipment and operator error. Many of us have far more experience than you.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The difference is that some people understand and know something about the system based on a sufficient amount of actual experience, and others do not.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and certainly everyone is entitle to like or dislike whatever one wants to, but not all opinions are as valuable as others. Some opinions are mere prejudice.



I only have 20,000 or 30,000 miles of experience with in-mast furling and only in tough ocean conditions up to latitude 71N and with probably cumulatively weeks of sailing in Force 8 and above. I guess I've been lucky for 10 years and all those miles? Right -- believe that if you like. Some people love their own opinions more than any facts. You've got probably half of all UK sailors right behind me, and nearly 100% of people who sail excellent blue water yachts like Hallberg Rassy, Oyster and Amel.



I'm not selling in-mast furling and I have no "pride of ownership". I don't think it's the only good system. In fact at the moment I'm leaning towards a ketch rig with full batten main and mizzen for my next boat. But I don't like it when people trash talk in-mast furling without the slightest real knowledge about how it actually works, HOW to operate or maintain it, or what is good or bad about it.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You've got probably half of all UK sailors right behind me, and nearly 100% of people who sail excellent blue water yachts like Hallberg Rassy, Oyster and Amel.

I would dispute the 'nearly 100%' figure.... by far the majority of the HRs I have seen over the last decade have had slab reefing.
What buyers of new HRs, Oysters,and Amels ( do they get a choice?) settle on has about as much relevance as the choice of fabric buyers of Rolls Royce Cullinans make.

Re the percentage of boats out there with in-mast....
Its the depths of winter where I am just now, wet and cold, and there is not a lot to keep me amused.

I went to marinetraffic, filtered for pleasure vessels , and about a week ago whenever I had a spare moment started looking at what was out there. Not scientific, maybe 50% don't come with photos.... but of the rest a remarkably small percentage showed up as in mast .... and that was along the Norwegian coast, English Channel, bits of the Med, FP, Unzud......

Greatest concentration was in the Hamble.... about a dozen out of all the boats running AIS alongside... and that was quite a few boats.....

As I say... very unscientific... but a simple survey anyone can carry out from the comfort of their own living room.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

You just demonstrated an example of being dismissive of mast furling criticisms based upon blaming it on the equipment and operator error. Many of us have far more experience than you.

With in-mast furling? I beg to differ. You said you have sailed three times with in-mast furling on another person's boat. I have sailed tens of thousands of miles with in-mast furling. Pardon me for being "dismissive" of categorical opinions based on such a small amount of experience. One should know what one does not know.


It would be as if someone had ridden three times in a car which was experiencing mechanical difficulties, and then:


"I've ridden in a car three whole times!" [The same car, not even three different cars] "Furthermore, I heard tell of other cars with mechanical problems. I don't own a car, I've never owned a car, and don't know how to drive a car, but I know that all cars are crap. They are mechanically unreliable and problems with them are ubiquitous. All you guys who own cars and are happy with them -- you just don't know how bad they are and what kind of problems are waiting for you just around the corner. Your confidence in your cars is based on pride of ownership and delusion; more money than brains, blah blah."


You would not be surprised that car owners would be "dismissive" of such silliness, so don't be surprised if owners of in-mast furling boats are "dismissive" of the kind of nonsense that gets posted by people with no knowledge and no meaningful experience.



YES, as has been said repeatedly -- in-mast furling CAN break down. YES, it's not for everyone. YES -- in-mast furling has different disadvantages. But cars also can break down. Hell, I had a Range Rover and other English cars Jib furlers can break down. Diesel engines can break down. The question, with respect to any of these, is whether they break down so often that you can't depend on them, not whether they break down at all. As every actual owner of in-mast furling has posted here -- and most of those people, like Pete7 and Kenomac, have more than 10 years experience with the system -- operated with some minimal knowledge of how they work, with a sail in reasonable condition, and with reasonable maintenance, the better systems are very, very reliable, not less reliable than other systems on board like jib furling and diesel engines.


Speaking from my own experience, I have had more problems with my headsail furlers, and with my diesel engine, than with my mast furler.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I would dispute the 'nearly 100%' figure.... by far the majority of the HRs I have seen over the last decade have had slab reefing.
What buyers of new HRs, Oysters,and Amels ( do they get a choice?) settle on has about as much relevance as the choice of fabric buyers of Rolls Royce Cullinans make.

Re the percentage of boats out there with in-mast....
Its the depths of winter where I am just now, wet and cold, and there is not a lot to keep me amused.

I went to marinetraffic, filtered for pleasure vessels , and about a week ago whenever I had a spare moment started looking at what was out there. Not scientific, maybe 50% don't come with photos.... but of the rest a remarkably small percentage showed up as in mast .... and that was along the Norwegian coast, English Channel, bits of the Med, FP, Unzud......

Greatest concentration was in the Hamble.... about a dozen out of all the boats running AIS alongside... and that was quite a few boats.....

As I say... very unscientific... but a simple survey anyone can carry out from the comfort of their own living room.

Henri Amel left almost no choice to the buyer on any item of equipment. He was an eccentric but brilliant guy who had 100,000 miles or whatever experience and had worked out sometimes eccentric but often brilliant solutions to what is needed for long-distance, ocean-crossing cruisers. All of his boats had in-mast furling; I had never even heard of one with anything else except one mentioned here or in some other forum.


Hallberg-Rassys between 40 and 60 feet are 100% equipped with in-mast furling as standard in the last 20 years at lease -- call them if you don't believe me. You might be able to special order one with slab reefing, but I've never seen a single one in 5 summers cruising the Baltic. I don't know where you've seen them with slab reefing -- they must be old ones. Just look at the HR website -- not a slab reef sail in sight.


Oysters between 40 and 60 feet -- ditto. Bigger than 60 feet some of them have boom furling. I've never seen an Oyster newer than 20 years old with slab reefing.


That's just a fact. If you see a boat in Northern Europe, made in Northern Europe, without in-mast furling, it's either (a) more than 20 years old; (b) smaller than 40 feet; or (c) a racer or racer-cruiser. During the last 20 years, in-mast furling has become the practically universal mainsail system in these waters, for cruising boats. Selden is one of the top three spar makers in Europe, I read somewhere that more than 90% of their masts are in-mast furling.


You are free of course to dislike it -- everyone has a right to like whatever he wants to, on the basis of whatever he wants. But you can't dismiss it as some crap foisted on some unknowledgable newbies by boat makers. By and large, sailors who live with in-mast furling won't have anything else afterwards. Did you read this, from Post 215:


"If you've read Time on Ice: A Winter Voyage to Antarctica, by the Swede Rolf Bjelke, you'll recall that they specially installed in-mast furling on both main and mizzen of Northern Light for the first voyage, and then went back to in-mast furling after a season with fully battened main and mizzen, and had high praise for the performance of in-mast furling:

"'Using fully battened sails was fun and different experience for us, but none the less we will change back to furling sails: we prefer the advantages furling sails provide, especially in these waters. [writing about the Drake Passage etc.]' p. 109. Just happened to have that by my bunk.

"Those guys sailed from the Arctic to Antarctica, and actually overwintered in Antarctica in their yacht."


The guy is Swedish -- so, in-mast furling is much more prevalent in Scandinavia and the UK, than in other places.

[Dockhead]

Hallberg Rassy current lineup (over 40 feet):

















Not a slab reef sail in sight! All from the HR website: https://www.hallberg-rassy.com/


Note the beautiful shape of the mainsail in the photo of the HR 44 under sail. This becomes possible with in-mast furling, when you have laminate sails and vertical battens.