In-mast vs in-boom furling

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I guess it depends a lot on the type of cruising you are doing. Many boats on a typical circumnavigation end up putting on a lot of miles on their sails and are unlikely to be buying new ones half way through if they started with sails in good condition. Being half way around and put on 30 or 40,000 miles is not unusual.

I absolutely agree. I think I wrote somewhere above, that in-mast furling would be a poor choice for someone intending to sail 30 or 40,000 miles on a single set of dacron sails.



Not every system, is good for every use case. In mild latitudes and especially for coastal sailing, I would not want any kind of furling mainsail. I would want the roachiest full batten main I could fit. I like to sail, and when most of your wind is less than 20 knots, you want as much power as you can get from the mainsail.



Where I sail, which requires me to be out regularly in Force 8 conditions, I would not have a roachy full batten mainsail on a single mast boat of my size with a 75 foot mast and a high boom. It would be dangerous. There are times, on a regular basis, when you need to reef, when it would be dangerous to be on deck, and the sea conditions make it dangerous to head up to reef a conventional main. In-mast furling is worth its weight in gold for such a use case. Obviously -- a quality system, well maintained, with a good sail. Sailing in tough weather, a thousand miles from land, whatever rig you have needs to be quality and needs to be in perfect condition.



I like sailing in tough high latitudes and intend to keep on doing this. My Moody is fairly good at this -- very tough construction, well designed in all of the details, but I am trying to earn enough money to build a new boat purpose built for this kind of sailing, a metal boat. I have spent a lot of time on the design brief and I haven't entirely decided what the rig should look like. One possibility is a ketch rig with the masts far apart and with a large mizzen. In this case the sails might be small enough and the booms low enough for a normal full batten main and mizzen to make sense, with battcars and electric halyard winches. But if it's a cutter rig, then my inclination would be to stay with in-mast furling, which has no big disadvantages for this use case (almost always windy, so you don't care that much about extra power from the mainsail).


Boom furling sounds intriguing, and unlike some people I give more weight to the experience of people who have lived with it, than to what I can figure out about it from my armchair. There are a few reasons why it seems like it would suck (no outhaul, heavy boom, etc.) but clearly it does not suck based on what people who own it say. But I doubt that I would take the plunge without having lived with it myself, and life isn't long enough, unfortunately, for such experiments. The next boat will no doubt be my last one.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The fact is that virtually all examples of virtually all high end cruising boats made in Northern Europe are delivered with in-mast furling.


.....

I don't know about that. I just looked at the Garcia Exploration 60 because there was a smaller one down the dock here. The image does not look like in-mast to me.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The fact is that virtually all examples of virtually all high end cruising boats made in Northern Europe are delivered with in-mast furling.

.

Putting aside the fact Northern Europe is neither significant, large nor representative of anything, I’d like to see the quantitative data from which you reach the judgment that “virtually all high end boats” have mast furling sails.

Absent that, it’s just your opinion and as you imply, opinions are often based on nothing other than uninformed perceptions.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Putting aside the fact Northern Europe is neither significant, large nor representative of anything....

Aren't most of the major consumer yacht and catamaran manufacturers based in Northern Europe? Sweden, France, Germany, UK, Denmark.

[daletournier]

I'm just not seeing the problems with inmast furlers that people are so terrified about.

I'm around boats every single day, I've cruised with many boats equipped with inmast furlers , more have them than less ,yet I've only ever seen 1 bad jam and that was a charter boat in Thailand. I saw another mild jam recently on a Halberg rassy while at St Helena, this was freed easily and the crew reported it was the owner being stubborn with the electric winch.

So if they are do bad you'd think I'd see them failing often or at least somewhat regularly, not just 2 issues in ten years in a variety of countries around the world and a variety of sailors.

It's another prejudice just like bolt on keels fall off, catamarans flip and production boats aren't bluewater capable, these prejudices are generally held by people with minimal experience.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't know about that. I just looked at the Garcia Exploration 60 because there was a smaller one down the dock here. The image does not look like in-mast to me.

You are right -- and that's why I specified "Northern Europe". The French don't use in-mast nearly as much on their high end boats, as the Brits, Dutch, and Swedes do.


My theory about this is latitude -- the higher the latitude, the more wind, and the more wind, the less you need a roachy mainsail, and the more sense in-mast furling works.


French boats get used in the Mediterranean and Southern parts of the European Atlantic coasts. In-mast furling doesn't really make much sense in the Med, in my opinion.


I also specified "cruising boats". Performance boats like X Yachts and many Swans, likewise don't use in-mast furling.


Horses for courses.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Putting aside the fact Northern Europe is neither significant, large nor representative of anything, I’d like to see the quantitative data from which you reach the judgment that “virtually all high end boats” have mast furling sails.
. . .

What percentage of the world's production of expensive cruising boats are represented by Hallberg Rassey, Discovery, Oyster, Contest, Najad, Sweden Yachts, Southerly? 60%? 70%? Something like that. Sorry, but Northern Europe dominates the world market of high end cruising boats.



How many of these have in-mast furling? This data is easily accessible -- just go through Yachtworld.com and look at all the boats of these makes made in the last 20 years and count how many you find with something other than in-mast furling.


I've been in this market off and on for 15 years and know what there is. You'll find a few Oysters of 70 feet or more with boom furling, probably less than 3% of their production. You'll find one or two at most with a full batten main -- rare as hen's teeth -- very odd custom jobs.


I've never seen a Hallberg Rassey of 45 feet or more, made in the last 20 years, without in-mast furling -- not a single one. And I cruise most of the length of the Swedish coast almost every year. HR is probably the world's largest maker of high-end cruising boats.



These are facts.

[barnakiel]

This is not about brains vs. no brains ownership.


This is about practicalities as each system has different pros / cons.


BTW Judging by measurable factors, rich owners are in the brainy club. Otherways how come they became rich? Or you do not believe in predestination or something?


Practical matters, nothing else. They are all equally good systems only each is slightly different in use. And they offer different alternatives to builders (think of HR with their mass produced rigging vs. Amel with in house custom builds, etc.)



;-)
b.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The French don't use in-mast nearly as much on their high end boats, as the Brits, Dutch, and Swedes do.

My theory about this is latitude -- the higher the latitude, the more wind, and the more wind, the less you need a roachy mainsail, and the more sense in-mast furling works.

French boats get used in the Mediterranean and Southern parts of the European Atlantic coasts. In-mast furling doesn't really make much sense in the Med, in my opinion.

I also specified "cruising boats". Performance boats like X Yachts and many Swans, likewise don't use in-mast furling.

There is possibly another theory pertaining to the French preference towards non-furling mainsails:

The French, perhaps more than any other group of sailors, are enamored by performance and racing. They seem to go to great extents to have performance features on their boats. (why else would Katana cruising catamarans have their steering wheels on the far aft corners of each hull? It's because the racing catamarans have this.)

So, to the French, performance, or the perception of performance, leads them to prefer boats with optimized mainsails. Swans and X-yachts, likewise, perhaps cater to those with performance inclinations.

New Zealanders, who are a nation of great sailors, and who sail near the high latitudes of the Southern Ocean, seem to also avoid in-mast furling mains. It's all about caring or not about the feel of sailing and the performance of a great mainsail.

A lot of high end yacht builders are selling yachts to successful (rich) people who are used to their comfort. Sweating while putting away the mainsail just does not fit into their program. Their wives might have to put down the dog.

Those of us however who don't care that much about a little (or a lot) of lost performance but care a lot more about convenience, and a perception of safety, will lean towards furling mains. That is OK. I will meet them on the water, and after a few miles they will have to tack away.

As for me, I actually like the routine of putting away sails. Yesterday, after folding our main, Judy and I were standing on the cabin top facing each other, with our elbows on the boom over of the mainsail chatting. I put my hands on the stiff folds of Dacron and felt the texture with my fingertips, my forearms. I thought about the millennia of sailors who have folded sails and I felt a kinship with those sailors who came before me. I am one with them. Pushing a button to roll up the sail without ever touching it seems just so bloodless to me. It is a different sport.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

. . . A lot of high end yacht builders are selling yachts to successful (rich) people who are used to their comfort. Sweating while putting away the mainsail just does not fit into their program. Their wives might have to put down the dog.

Those of us however who don't care that much about a little (or a lot) of lost performance but care a lot more about convenience, and a perception of safety, will lean towards furling mains. That is OK. I will meet them on the water, and after a few miles they will have to tack away.

I think that's reasonably perceptive. But don't forget also that the performance advantage of roachy normal mains is notable only in lighter winds. In heavy wind I daresay a good in-mast furling main may work better than a roachy normal main. Giving not only convenience and "perception of safety", but also actual performance. That goes back to the latitude issue I mentioned.



Also this "convenience" caters not only to laziness, but also makes it possible to be much more active in adjusting mainsail area. Keen sailors in in-mast furling boats (some people don't believe such a thing exists, but they do ) tend to aggressively adjust mainsail area and leave the jib alone. This is really effective, and means the jib can always work optimally, and a boat sailed like this may well be faster than a comparable roachy main boat which is forced to put a roll in the jib because it's not practical to continuously put in and take out reefs in the normal main.

Originally Posted by wingssail

As for me, I actually like the routine of putting away sails. Yesterday, after folding our main, Judy and I were standing on the cabin top facing each other, with our elbows on the boom over of the mainsail chatting. I put my hands on the stiff folds of Dacron and felt the texture with my fingertips, my forearms. I thought about the millennia of sailors who have folded sails and I felt a kinship with those sailors who came before me. I am one with them. Pushing a button to roll up the sail without ever touching it seems just so bloodless to me. It is a different sport.

Very poetic This powerful testimony actually puts a few grams in the scale towards conventional main and mizzen and ketch rig, for my own boat.



Although, I have to say, I always found flaking and covering full batten mains to be exhausting, and the faff of this goes up exponentially with size of the sail. But kudos for so expressively showing the other side of this

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You are right -- and that's why I specified "Northern Europe". The French don't use in-mast nearly as much on their high end boats, as the Brits, Dutch, and Swedes do.


My theory about this is latitude -- the higher the latitude, the more wind, and the more wind, the less you need a roachy mainsail, and the more sense in-mast furling works.


French boats get used in the Mediterranean and Southern parts of the European Atlantic coasts. In-mast furling doesn't really make much sense in the Med, in my opinion.


I also specified "cruising boats". Performance boats like X Yachts and many Swans, likewise don't use in-mast furling.


Horses for courses.

A large part of the world exists where wind in prevalent throughout the S Pacific, Australia and my favorite place in the world, Ne Zealand, in which sailing is common rather than the exception. Mast furling is the rare exception there and they have some experience which shouldn’t be ignored.

Regardless of venue or opinion, mast furling horror stories are ubiquitous consistent with my experience. If you have data to support your claim they are not prone to problems moreso than other variants or are more reliable, why not share it rather than say it’s “easily accessible”? And I’m referring to efficacy rather than popularity, the latter being meaningless and indistinguishable from the ‘dock queen’ group.

[daletournier]

What if the different experiences are based on the different imast furlers that ones used?

I like mine alot ,this is due to I've had no problems regarding jamming. I was just on a Beneteau 44 center cockpit , I do not know what year. The owner hates his inmast, it jams regularly. It's a older Seldon rig and has a very narrow slot ,lucky to be 10mm. I looked at it and can easily see why he hates it.

The slot on my Sparcraft rig is approximately 25mm, my mates newer seldon rig also has a slot approximately 25mm wide, both of us have had no problems and both like inmast furling. The other guy hates inmast furling.

Maybe it's more accurate to say I like my inmast furler and he dislikes his inmast furler, rather than generalize that all inmast furlers are good or all inmast furlers are bad.

[thlamers]

Am afraid there is still no mainsail system as trouble-free and easy to use as are the furling and reefing headsail systems


We use an "open" around-the-boom system on our cat and when it works well it is painless and fast to raise or lower the main. Only works smoothly when head-to-wind.



Where it is not to my liking is when trying to shorten sail running downwind. There is a force vector trying to push the cloth towards the mast and this can cause the luff to jam against it making further rolling-up impossible. This represents a safety issue for us. When I decide to reef or drop sail, such as in a sudden squall, it is important that the process be 100 % reliable and quick.



I have never owned an in-mast furler but have talked to charter companies about their experiences and they cite lots of jams, particularly among first time sailors.



THLaMers

[Alita49DS]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You are right -- and that's why I specified "Northern Europe". The French don't use in-mast nearly as much on their high end boats, as the Brits, Dutch, and Swedes do.


My theory about this is latitude -- the higher the latitude, the more wind, and the more wind, the less you need a roachy mainsail, and the more sense in-mast furling works.


French boats get used in the Mediterranean and Southern parts of the European Atlantic coasts. In-mast furling doesn't really make much sense in the Med, in my opinion.


I also specified "cruising boats". Performance boats like X Yachts and many Swans, likewise don't use in-mast furling.


Horses for courses.

Where on earth did you get the idea that French boats don't use in mast as much or that was because they were used in Southern Europe and the Med?

1. Many French boats use in mast. Often not to have it is an option.

2. France has three coasts: Channel, West onto the Atlantic, Med. The first two can have a lot of wind a lot of the time and the third can be motoring between storms. I have been based at one time or another in all three.

3. As for the Southern European coast not having wind, have you ever tried Portugal or the Straights? Been based in both.

All I can say is that my French boat came as standard with in mast furling and I have blessed it many a time. The only traditional downside of size/set has been largely obviated by my new main having vertical battens.

As you rightly say, Horses for Courses. However, it helps to know the course before deciding on the horse. The French do. Which is why they fit in mast. Not only on production boats such as mine but Amel, Wauqiez etc.

[Tillsbury]

It’s also a question of availability and price. Leisurefurl is a New Zealand company, and the product is stonkingly expensive down here, and presumably not much cheaper overseas. On a 40+ foot boat you’re looking at tens of thousands to switch, including a new main. But people are doing it, as it’s such a good system, provided they already have slab reefing.

One side benefit which hasn’t been mentioned (and is commonly used here in NZ) is that in-boom systems allow you to race by simply taking the main off and swapping it for your slab reefed racing main. Many boats here have put the in-boom system in so they can continue to competetively race by removing their furling drum, swapping to slide-up jibs and a slab reefed main, but then the following week going back to fully furling main and jib to go cruising. Not something that the full-time cruiser cares much about, but relevant places like down here. Many serious sailors go into “cruising mode” over our winter, sailing up to the Pacific Islands for the season, then come back during their cyclone season (which is our summer), and doing some semi-serious weekend racing when they’re back.