In-mast vs in-boom furling

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

To the OP -- congrats on discovering sailing, and welcome. There is nothing that provides better sail shape and simpler (reliable) furling than a full-battened mainsail, low friction track cars and lazyjacks. NOTHING else comes close.

In-mast and in-boom systems can bind and be finicky, and can fail (often at the worst possible time). The fact that there is controversy shows the division between those people who have experienced failure (or finicky problems) and those who haven't experienced it yet. Expense and complication are not needed, and push-button sailing is a fallacy.

I can drop my 56-foot main in about 10 seconds in an emergency, reef while running downwind, and raise it with an electric winch. My sails are cut to have optimum shape. Best of all worlds.

Very true, keep t simple and functional.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Giro

I have been convinced by far more experienced sailors than I and by boatyard boatmasters that lazy jacks are the way to go. So, that’s why I’m adding them to the boom on my sloop.

I read simplicity but hear cheaper.

I was so glad to see the back of our lazy jacks. What a PITA they always were catching the main up and down no matter where they were routed. A stack pack would have been better but you need to be dead into the wind otherwise the main is all over the shop.

I hear many cite simplicity as having lazy jacks and a main in a track. As an engineer I consider our boom furler much simpler to use with zero reefing lines and zero lazy jacks. Raising or lowering the main is now a one person job.

With the old main it took two to get it down and stowed. Definitely not simpler. But definitely cheaper.

The boom is more complex but is massively over engineered compared to the old boom which had various reefing blocks and a worn goose neck and.fixed vang eliminates sail misalignment. We Alamo have relocated our traveller to the dosger and ditched the track for lateral blocks. Another bunch of line, pulleys and cars off the boat.

Our boom furler is at least a magnitude much more expensive than our old boom and lazy jack system. But sailing is definitely simpler.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

My own experience has not been as nice as many above. I’ve done over 40k nm between Panama and Hobart.
In mast. In bad weather going to Fiji. 60+ knots of wind. Mainsail got damaged. Trying to furl, it got stuck in the slot. I ended up the mast for several hours getting it out. Had to wait for the wind to die down so we could get it off the mast boom. Dangerous, and and injuries while up the mast.

In boom. Done several voyages on catamarans with in boom. A nightmare every time getting the boom set up so the sail stacks in line with the boom. If the boom angle is even slightly off the exact angle the sail sits on the boom incorrectly and getting the sail up , and or just getting it on the roller is hell.

Stack it. So simple. So easy.

Bear in mind these production boats are really just caravans to park up at a marina. Not designed for real sailing.

Pete

The last paragraph discredits your entire post....and explains why you had so much trouble with a system that most of us enjoy.

[Mick of 42]

Howdy, I have a Leisure Furl in-boom system and it drives me crazy!
Firstly I am a newbie to sailing and thought the Leisure Furl in-boom system would be good for my mostly solo sailing. The issues I have probably come from a lack of experience but here they are...
1 Raising the sail requires the boom to be at 87 degrees to the mast... or the sail binds and doesn't travel up or down the mast correctly.
2 The friction raising the sail is so much I have to rest a couple of times to reach full height
3 The locking pin for the furling drum has no feedback and is situated at the front of the mast requiring me to walk forward to check if it is engaged or disengaged properly... I was trying to avoid the need to go forward when solo and reefing.
4 The furling drum has 6mm line so that it doesn't jam the drum (as mentioned above) so it doesn't fit the winch unless I treat it as a non self tailing winch... so as a result dropping the main takes many reststops and negates the advantage of the furling system.



So I am trying to modify things to counter all these issues.

[a64pilot]

I can’t help you with the locking pin as my system doesn’t have one, it’s solid.
However your other issues I believe can be solved with either a larger winch and a Milwaukee drill, which is what I did, or an electric winch.
Often times lines from the other side of the boat can be ran around one winch and taken to the other so that the one big or electric winch can be used to both furl and raise the sail.
Of course you could also just run both lines to the same winch.

I wasn’t man enough to raise and furl my sail manually either. However the Milwaukee makes all my winches electric, I even use it to raise the dinghy.
I like it so much, I bought two.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Mick of 42

Howdy, I have a Leisure Furl in-boom system and it drives me crazy!
Firstly I am a newbie to sailing and thought the Leisure Furl in-boom system would be good for my mostly solo sailing. The issues I have probably come from a lack of experience but here they are...
1 Raising the sail requires the boom to be at 87 degrees to the mast... or the sail binds and doesn't travel up or down the mast correctly.
2 The friction raising the sail is so much I have to rest a couple of times to reach full height
3 The locking pin for the furling drum has no feedback and is situated at the front of the mast requiring me to walk forward to check if it is engaged or disengaged properly... I was trying to avoid the need to go forward when solo and reefing.
4 The furling drum has 6mm line so that it doesn't jam the drum (as mentioned above) so it doesn't fit the winch unless I treat it as a non self tailing winch... so as a result dropping the main takes many reststops and negates the advantage of the furling system.



So I am trying to modify things to counter all these issues.

Hi, my boat came with a leisurefurl that I found a little difficult at first but after a conversation with a sailmaker who knew them I became far more confident with it and now I like it a lot.

Raising the sail doesn't require the specific angle, only lowering it to roll it onto the mandril, I understood 88 deg was the number however I have the topping lift marked at the required angle so achieving it is simple. Normally I leave the lift alone so sail is at the correct angle for raising or lowering.

As to the friction, have you lubricated the bearing that passes through the mast? Can make a noticable difference. Also sail lube on the track and sail as it is raised occasionally helps.
The locking pin I only use when putting the boat away on it's mooring, never used it when sailing so not a problem.

The 6mm line I agree can be a pain however I rarely need to winch it down and furl, I have found that I keep one wrap of the main halyard around it's winch and take the tail across the cockpit to the tail of the furling line that is wrapped around the winch on that side, release the main clutch and operate both lines together, as the sail furls the main halyard is released at the same rate. If winching is required the line is already wrapped and so is easy to achieve. Lubrication is the key here, only needs to be done occasionally but like all maintenance it needs to be done.
Hope this helps a little.

[blazing928]

Like the OP I am a power boater that likes the idea to sail one day. On my last RYA coastal skipper course we had to reef and unreef a lot in the 38’ mono during the weeks course. The last day was windy enough that the police chopper hovered above for 1/2hr as we came into the marina. When they saw we lowered the jib safely and motored in, they left.

TBH it cemented in my mind that if I get a yacht one day it will have in mast or in boom reefing, with my preference to in boom and roller furling headsails! As I would likely be the main sail handler and at our age (close to 60) the automation of sail handling is a far safer option.

Also what some don’t get is by making it easier you will use it a lot more which increases the safety. If the wind is changing constantly, then easy furling means you are having a safe amount of sail up to suit the conditions. I still windsurf and you always rig for the current conditions not what you hope will come along. So many comments ring that bell, as they seem to leave reefing till it’s a big problem, probably because it’s a pain to do.

To give an analogy, we have twin stern drives joystick docking, purists hate it, but you know we go out a lot and it allows us to use the boat more often in high winds where docking with sticks is difficult. Yes I can dock on the sticks, I practice, for when the joystick might fail, but I wouldn’t buy a boat without it now.

These new fangled stuff allows more people to enjoy boating and surely getting out on the water, regardless of your talent is what it’s all about! I fail to understand why some are so derogatory to others just because they sail/ power from one extreme to another, an apartment boat vs an engine less long keeled gaff rigged proper boat!

Nigel

[blazing928]

For cat interested sailors, Chris White’s Atlantic 47 mastfoil is an interesting view. Two furling headsails and a small foil on each mast.

( I love the idea, but the main saloon and back deck look a bit small)

https://chriswhitedesigns.com/index.php/a47-mastfoil

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

2. In boom is nice and much better than standard stack pack, but you will need to raise the main each time it’s used, so make sure you have an electric winch.

But then you’re adding more complexity to the setup with the joys of electric winches tripping when your main is only halfway raised. Nothing beats a good ol’ standard manual winch and a bit of elbow grease!😁

If it was me, I’d go for a simple stackpack, single line reefing and an electric winch. HOWEVER, my cat came with Pro Furl in boom furling and an elec winch, so for the time being that’ll do....

N

[DGH]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Having owned and used all three systems..

1. In mast furling with vertical battens is the easiest, quickest and most trouble free. Especially if hydraulic or electric.

2. In boom is nice and much better than standard stack pack, but you will need to raise the main each time it’s used, so make sure you have an electric winch.

3. Standard stack pack. Really Sucks, unless you’re a racer, masochist, purist or just plain ignorant of the two more superior methods and how to use them.

Having sailed and raced yachts for more than 50 years, and still racing and cruising long distance, I totally agree with Kenomac. I’ve sailed with slab reefing, on-boom roller reefing, in-boom roller reefing and in mast roller reefing. All have their place but for general short handed Cruising in-mast is without doubt the most convenient and easiest to live with. BUT you must have a good quality un-stretched not baggy, not cheap mainsail. Vertical leach battens in a carbon main is a very nice solution. Old baggy cross-cut Dacron sails will give you trouble. So will flapping or luffing the sail when furling.
In my experience in-boom has no justification on yachts under about 60 feet or even bigger. It’s fairly tricky to use (I’m to mast angle) and you have to mostly go close to head-to-Wind to furl if there’s much breeze and your mainsail even though it can have horizontal battens and roach, has to be cut very flat.
If you want a good mainsail go for conventional slab reefing. It will be the same amount of hassle as in-boom but a much better sail. In-boom does give you a neat stowed sail when done, if that important to you. So does in- mast and it’s easy.
Good luck

[Carlos Molinelli]

I have no doubt that I will never use an in-mast reefing, for the following reasons:

1) S..t happens.
In a sailboat you have to try to keep everything simple, simple, simple.
The consequences of not being able to drop or reef a mainsail are very dangerous
When you need to reef or drop the mainsail it has to be done! Fast!
And a locked mechanism is not easy to repair in the middle of something ugly.
What would you do? Raise somebody to the top with a knife to cut the mainsail? No way.
There are systems that allows you to reef in the boom without leaving the cockpit, with one or two ropes.

2) Sailboats with in-mast reef sail worse, for the following facts:

a) Mainsail does not have horizontal battens, which are necessary to direct the flow aft and not to windward.

b) The mast is necessarily wider because it has to contain the sail. That means that it is heavier, raising the gravity center, and presents more windage. Having a higher gravity center increase rolling, pitching and heeling. Not good.

It is safer to sail better, specially to windward.

Sailboats with in-mast reefing system sail worse to windward than normal sailboats.

I am only sail since 1962, most of the time racing until recently.
Sorry, obviously English is not my first language...

[Carlos Molinelli]

This is a good article.
Look at the "slab reefing system"

https://www.liveabout.com/reef-the-mainsail-2915473

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Carlos Molinelli

. . . 2) Sailboats with in-mast reef sail worse, for the following facts:

a) Mainsail does not have horizontal battens, which are necessary to direct the flow aft and not to windward.

b) The mast is necessarily wider because it has to contain the sail. That means that it is heavier, raising the gravity center, and presents more windage. Having a higher gravity center increase rolling, pitching and heeling. Not good.

It is safer to sail better, specially to windward.

Sailboats with in-mast reefing system sail worse to windward than normal sailboats....

This is more or less true, BUT:


a) CG is not raised on in-mast furling boats unless the furling mast was retrofitted to a boat designed for a conventional mast. Ballast is added to correct CG in boats designed for in-mast furling.


b) However, weight aloft and polar moment of inertia is inevitably increased because the mast is heavier. This is both good and bad -- dampens rolling, for example, NOT increases it.



c) Boats in in-mast reef sail worse in light winds -- that is for sure. Loss of roach has a big negative effect on power of the mainsail, disproportionate to the area lost.


d) But worse to windward -- no indeed, except in light wind. On the contrary, in-mast furling boats have flatter cut mainsails which have less power but less drag, so they tend to be pretty good upwind, especially when the wind is a little stronger.


You didn't mention the biggest disadvantage of in-mast furling mains -- the trim problems from the hollow leech most of them have. This hurts performance in almost all conditions. But this can be corrected with straight leech supported by vertical battens.


Then there are performance ADVANTAGES, mentioned by others, resulting from faster and easier changing of sail area, and the roach problem disappears when reefed. In-mast furling mainsails work well when reefed because of the shape and control (they get flatter as they are furled), so keenly sailed in-mast furling boats reef actively with the mainsail and leave the headsail alone, and may be faster than conventional reefed boats in winds too strong to avoid any reefing.


That's one reason why in-mast furling is so prevalent in Northern Europe at latitudes with stronger wind. Yes, you wouldn't choose it for racing, but it sucks surprisingly little in real life conditions, especially in windy latitudes.

[Carlos Molinelli]

Everything you said make sense to me.
However, the main reason against in-mast reefing is the need to ensure that you can drop or reef the main when it is needed and the danger when you cannot.
About the performance, I do not know about performance of in-reef sails under reef, but it is sure worst without the reef, which happens most of the time.
And as you said, with light winds, being the mainsail flatter and without horizontal battens, it would have less power to compensate for a strong current.

The most important issue is to use the system that makes you happier...

[nilespf]

Quite the discussion we have going. I have a bene361 with In-Mast which dates back to 2002 new. The main is original and as such would probably be considered "blown out". The act of furling has become harder but far from difficult. I'm not a racer so the sail shape arguments don't resonate. Having un stepped the stick and inpected the components that make up the system including the extrusions within the mast it is hard for me to understand how any event characterised as jamming, failling or breaking would not be the result of operator error. They are the epitome of simplicity. Because the main is blown out, the single most important factor to maintain during furlling is boom angle because the sail will not furl to the same diameter as it did when new. The extrusion cavity has been designed to accept the proper furled sail and to allow for wear AND SOME prebending of the stick. Yes someone will bend the mast rather than rake.The susceptability the system has to amount of prebending, boom angle and furling tension will change as the main wears. I have a question for the In-Boom community and it involves how the system pays out the main while attaching the luff to the stick. I get the halyard raising it but cannot envision the scheme for luff attachment. I would guess the drum is braked such that when the center of force of the sail has begun to pull perpendicular to the upward moving sail it has both enough ass and creates the tension for luff control. The center of force moves upward (out of the boom)and forward eventually transferring to the stick. I guess???