In-mast vs in-boom furling

[leftbrainstuff]

We installed a Schaeffer boom furler and electric winches on our Liberty 458. Love it.

Can reef at any point of sail and with many more reefing options. We also have full battens and a little extra roach.

At the end of the day we are sailing more and reefing in and out more frequently. Average speeds are up and the electric winches are great so sailing is more comfortable.

Ours is relatively new so would expect some extra luff tape wear but these days good quality sails are cheap. So we'll just replace when needed.

In mast reefing is more common on smaller vessels. Some folks love them and some hate them.

You'll get plenty of opinions, bs and 'expert' advice. Listen to the folks with experience and not the armchair sailors. Always ask what they have.

You really need to try. Odds are you'll get a boat already equipped so the decision is somewhat moot.

[boatman61]

Sailed both types and I lean towards the in-mast furlers..
Less faffing about for lazy buggas..

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So there are no cars? Why wouldn't you have cars on a sail which you raise and lower every time you use it?

Dockhead, in the first place we consider that you are speaking about mainsails; of course cars do not work on jibs.

On a mainsail cars are most commonly used with tracks (think Harken Battcar system). There are other mainsail attachment which are car-like but use groves without tracks. Other mainsail attachments include slides (running on a track) and slugs, which go into the groove.

We preferred to not add a Batt-car system for the expense, weight aloft (for the track as well as the cars) and the change to the mast stiffness profile by adding a track, plus the requirement to add a grommet and hardware to the mainsail luff at each place where a Battcar was to be located.

Some of the same objections apply to slides or slugs, and they must be inserted onto the mast when the sail is bent on. The presence of slugs in the lower part of the sail complicates slab reefing because they either stack up, preventing the sail from fully lowering, or you have to open the track and allow the lowest slides to come off. Then when raising the sail you must again insert the slugs or slides.

The solution we chose was for absolute simplicity. Just use a luff tape going up the mast groove. It goes up quickly and easily, and falls down just as easily when the halyard is released.

The only problem (other than luff tape wear) is that when the sail is down it falls off the mast entirely and must be controlled to prevent it from going over the side of the boat.

We know how to head into the wind and drop the sail with a hand next to the mast to control the luff, keeping it stuffed down next to the mast. In 33+ plus years we have never had a mainsail blow off the boat, but it has been a handful a time or two when dropping the main in heavy breezes. Judy has some bungie cords handy in those occasions and hooks one into each reef cringle along the luff and at the headboard to keep the sail close to the mast. She is good! Dropping the main on Wings is about a 10 second operation. Putting it up is also about 10-20 seconds. Folding after sailing is about 5 minutes.

We can change mainsails (from dacron cruising main, to either of our carbon racing mains) in about 10 minutes. We do this frequently.

Simplicity always wins out.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Dockhead, in the first place we consider that you are speaking about mainsails; of course cars do not work on jibs.

On a mainsail cars are most commonly used with tracks (think Harken Battcar system). There are other mainsail attachment which are car-like but use groves without tracks. Other mainsail attachments include slides (running on a track) and slugs, which go into the groove.

We preferred to not add a Batt-car system for the expense, weight aloft (for the track as well as the cars) and the change to the mast stiffness profile by adding a track, plus the requirement to add a grommet and hardware to the mainsail luff at each place where a Battcar was to be located.

Some of the same objections apply to slides or slugs, and they must be inserted onto the mast when the sail is bent on. The presence of slugs in the lower part of the sail complicates slab reefing because they either stack up, preventing the sail from fully lowering, or you have to open the track and allow the lowest slides to come off. Then when raising the sail you must again insert the slugs or slides.

The solution we chose was for absolute simplicity. Just use a luff tape going up the mast groove. It goes up quickly and easily, and falls down just as easily when the halyard is released.

The only problem (other than luff tape wear) is that when the sail is down it falls off the mast entirely and must be controlled to prevent it from going over the side of the boat.

We know how to head into the wind and drop the sail with a hand next to the mast to control the luff, keeping it stuffed down next to the mast. In 33+ plus years we have never had a mainsail blow off the boat, but it has been a handful a time or two when dropping the main in heavy breezes. Judy has some bungie cords handy in those occasions and hooks one into each reef cringle along the luff and at the headboard to keep the sail close to the mast. She is good! Dropping the main on Wings is about a 10 second operation. Putting it up is also about 10-20 seconds. Folding after sailing is about 5 minutes.

We can change mainsails (from dacron cruising main, to either of our carbon racing mains) in about 10 minutes. We do this frequently.

Simplicity always wins out.

Well, I had Harken Batt Cars on the previous boat, and considered them practically essential for a standard mainsail. All that friction is awful, in my opinion, with a sail which is raised and lowered all the time. YMMV I guess.

[merrymac]

In mast for sure. The loose footed main works great for trim and my Caliber 47 LRC was fast as hell (with a 130 genny). No problems at all with my wife and I sailing her for three years in all kinds of weather circumnavigating the Caribbean from Kemah, Texas to S. America and back. Able to furl to any size needed in the middle of a tropical storm (40 kts steady) with no problems. Electric halyard winch and auto pilot along with mast furling main make single handing easy as pie. The only problem is staying awake on those long passages!

[Clockwork575]

Ive got a Z Diffusion rig on a Hanse 575 with in-mast furling and I worry more about the furling line letting go than the sail getting jammed. Havent had it long but the furling mandrel looks to be VERY small diameter and the furling line very small (about 10mm max). The mandrell is inside the rig (beneath the gooseneck).
To re-tie another furling line the sail has to come out of the mast (totally removed) and the mandrel unbolted....try doing that short handed in 40 + kts!
But it is super-easy to use and I therefore tend to use it far more often. Not quite sure what I'll do long-term though.....reading the comments with interest.

[DHHerndon]

I converted my motorsailer, a Fisher 25, to roller-reefing-furling for all four of my sails (genoa, main, mizzen, and mule) a number of years ago. I used a firm called Reefurl. Website: Reefurl Roller Reefing Roller Furling Systems. Reefurl's owner is Rogan Taylor and his email address is: rogin.taylor@bigpond.com. The Reefurl system is very simple and much cheaper than other roller-reefing-furling systems. I am in my 80s and normal sail single-handed. The system for all sails is very easy to handle and I can raise, reef, or furl all four sails in under two minutes. Reefurl system can be installed on any sailing boat without changing masts, as the system fits behind the mast on its own stay. If you have questions, get back to me, Dave Herndon, at dhherndon@aol.com

[Normanskier]

My first larger boat a Sabre 36, bought new, included a Hood Stowaway mast as per my request. 1986.
I was most interested in cruising and it worked out very well. Easy to reef and furl. I never experienced a failure like some I have read about; a jam preventing the furling in heavy conditions. My then spouse was a do nothing on the boat so anything that assisted in single handling was a very positive factor.

After a while I got into racing. The mast for several reasons was a big handicap; weight up top and a negative roach. Really limited off wind and downwind speed. And no reduction in PHRF rating.

Now I am looking for another cruising boat (am 75) and current spouse is a great sailor. But with some knee replacements, spinal surgery, etc, I still want an easy main to put away. I’ve had lazy jacks, Dutchmen system, etc and none of them are that great on a 38 foot plus boat.

I would go for a furling boom, preferably Leisure Furl. Everyone I talk to that knows how to set them up loves them. The complainers don’t play around with the tweaks.

Good luck. If the funds are available go boom furling. Really increases your sailing time and use of your main. If you go lazy jacks use something like batt cars which reduces friction on the way up and down. Large roach sails put a lot of friction on the sail slides.

[Normanskier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Nor me either, that is what an meant by Social pressure, people expect to see in mast, if there is in mast there is no explanation, it’s what was expected, in boom for whatever reason just didn’t become the thing to have, unless of course there is some weak link that I’m unaware of.
Many, many things are driven on social pressure in Society, especially the luxury items, in fact I’d say that most buy whatever item based on it, everything from size and style of house, which automobile, phone etc, they buy whatever item most often based on its “the” socially preferred item to have.
Of course they all stand around and expound the socially accepted advantages of having a four wheel drive SUV in the city for example, because it’s the expected vehicle for a successful person to have, in the city.
I know I have now gotten many mad at me for disparaging SUV’s cause most have them, but I contend they have them because socially it’s the vehicle to have, not because they have any need of four wheel drive and or the capability to carry a dozen passengers.
Many, many times there are better items out there, but since they don’t have that brand name, they don’t sell as well, while people line up to buy Starbucks Coffee, Apple watches, Yeti coolers etc based solely on social pressures.
Boats are not immune.

Plus I’d strongly suspect that if your an OEM premium boat manufacturer that what you pay for in mast is a fraction of what it’s sold to Joe Public for, due I’d guess to number of units manufactured. The in boom people can’t do that, plus assumption is that the in mast systems are manufactured by the mast manufacturer and the in boom systems aren’t?
Meaning that the mast manufacturers are much bigger than the in boom guys, as ALL sailboats have masts, the mast manufacturers may subsidize the cost to OEM to get the units out there.
That is very common in manufacturing.

All of this is just a guess of course

Makes a lot of sense.

[Knightflier]

I have a 1980 Mason 43 equipped with a Foraspar in-boom “Offshore Leisure Furl System” that utilizes an electric winch on the cabin house in the cockpit to raise and furl the mainsail… works great, built-in sail cover as well. The previous owner of the boat was a single-handed sailor.

The system does take some practice in its operation but works fine. Could not think of having a boat this size without the in-boom system.

There are several advantages to the in-boom system over a mast furling system.
1. If you have a problem, you can just release the main halyard and drop the mainsail
2. When furling the main, the moving of the center of force on the sail with respect to the boat is more typical of a traditional furled sail. An in-mast system the center of force moves forward on the mainsail
3. All the working parts are at the level of the boom and not up the mast.
4. Full batten mainsail
5. Keeps weight and center of gravity at a lower level

Shaefer also makes an in-boom furling system.

s/v Dream Catcher
1980 Mason 43
Knightflier

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Clockwork575

Ive got a Z Diffusion rig on a Hanse 575 with in-mast furling and I worry more about the furling line letting go than the sail getting jammed. Havent had it long but the furling mandrel looks to be VERY small diameter and the furling line very small (about 10mm max). The mandrell is inside the rig (beneath the gooseneck).
To re-tie another furling line the sail has to come out of the mast (totally removed) and the mandrel unbolted....try doing that short handed in 40 + kts!
But it is super-easy to use and I therefore tend to use it far more often. Not quite sure what I'll do long-term though.....reading the comments with interest.

You don't have backup via a winch handle? I'm not familiar with that rig, but all in mast furling I've ever used could be operated at the mast with a winch handle.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You don't have backup via a winch handle? I'm not familiar with that rig, but all in mast furling I've ever used could be operated at the mast with a winch handle.

My Sparcraft dosen't. But I can get to the furling screw very easily if I had to and replace the rope,not that I'd want to in bad weather.

[Bluechart]

In mast furling works great, especially for short handed sailors.

I teach ASA 101, 103, 104, 105, 106 on SF Bay on 5 boats with in mast roller furling, as on my own boat.

Caution: Always unfurl and furl with the bow pointed within o~8 degrees into the wind.
If you try to unfurl or furl on a reach you may experience a jam! Don’t do it. Not even in your berth. (If you need to work on the sail, go anchor where the boat will head into the wind, then drop/raise, or furl.)

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi Mike, your not understanding or I'm not communicating clearly what I mean.

The performance difference imho isn't that noticable while long distance cruising, it's often made up for by the ease of sail handling and once the wind picks up the differences become less and less.

I used an example earlier of just completing a 1950nm passage with 2 other boats, a bene 473 and a tayana 52, we anchored within the same hour!!! The beneteau carries a much larger Genoa than I do and both have more powerful mains BUT in reality this is compensated for by how easy I furl and unfurl while they leave a reef in until they are sure of weather consistency.

Also in the lighter winds when their more powerful mains make a difference I throw up my code zero on a continuous line furler and that changes the game.

Keep in mind a lot of long distance cruising is down wind, main sail shape matters less.

I've done approx 9,000nm in the last 12 months with these two boats, I've been able to compare for hrs on end how the boats perform, code zeros vs assymetricals, big mains vs inmast etc, and yes the the fully batterned main is faster in certain conditions all else being equal BUT throw in all the variables of long distance cruising and they aren't, or it's not noticable.

Thanks for this good real world comparison Dale. I think this really is a good example of the difference between what a racing sailor might think vs one who is just a cruiser.

While it is true that if you could maintain that 1/4 knot difference over the entire distance of the passage, that is almost never the case and the ease (leading to larger use of) reefing and unreefing is more important than shape alone.

[Clockwork575]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You don't have backup via a winch handle? I'm not familiar with that rig, but all in mast furling I've ever used could be operated at the mast with a winch handle.

No the Z Spar cant be furled once the furling rope broke. I guess like most headsails except to re-run a new furling line is a major major. I reckon its crazy. Makes me very nervous. However, unlike a headsail furler the drum is cylindrical and the same diameter as the wound sail - therefore the load is far greater.