I have to have a pedestal made - why not a tabernacle?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by fxykty

This. All the pictures you provided are of small boats and their designs don’t apply to what you need.

Forget about a tabernacle and lowering/hoisting the mast on demand. I expect that designing a 6’ pedestal will be complex enough, without all the pivoting stuff. Consider that getting a new mast of the proper length may not look too bad in comparison.

If you haven’t yet, go sail on a 50+ foot performance cruising cat in a decent breeze and big seas. Experience the loads for yourself, including the pumps and the massive load spikes, so that you really understand the loads involved. The static rig tension alone, assuming your boat’s structure can handle it, is massive through the base of the mass. Then imagine a load three times that as you smash off a wave, such that the leeward shroud goes slack. A 1” SS bolt ain’t gonna be enough.

I was enjoying this post and agreeing but there was one spot I didn’t quite get. Assuming my boat’s structure can handle what?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Searles

Chotu ,yes exactly shift the goose neck to the lower fixed section ,so the boom stays in place ,the rest of your too short mast is above ,the lower section can be fabricated th suit.just one solution ,maybe .⛵️⚓️��

Ok, this is very interesting actually.

Is there any way at all I can hang a 59ft mast off a 20ft deckhouse? Does anyone know if that part is possible?

[Fore and Aft]

Chotu I think your over thinking it all. I could come around this afternoon after picking up a couple of power poles and bed sheets and have you sailing by sunset. You provide the crane and I will bring the jigsaw to cut a hole in each deck. If we use a couple of metal buckets for mast steps I can knock up a hot brew of polyester resin and choppy to hold them in place.
Cheers
PS in all seriousness a client of mine made his junk rig sails from some sort of green tarp and they got him to NZ and back to Oz again!

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Chotu

It sure is a good design! (I noticed the name on it when I was googling and was waiting for you to see it. Ha ha)

Really????

No side to side? That tabernacle holds things steady on the way up or down without baby stays?

Exactly what I’m hoping exists.

It does hold things steady, but I should point out that it's only a 35' mast, and it's a pretty stiff, hefty section, since it's a gaffer. But the stick is still light enough that two people can walk around with it. And that tabernacle is pretty beefy, since it was easy to overbuild and then sleep well.
I can't say I'd want to manhandle anything bigger, though if I had a bigger boat I'd have a schooner to keep the masts small.
The higher the hinge, the better control you have: look at the tabernacles on Thames barges and Broads boats, but there's a point at which tabernacle height looks ridiculous.
All that to say, I probably wouldn't put a tabernacle on a boat your size.

[NevilleCat]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Chotu I think your over thinking it all. I could come around this afternoon after picking up a couple of power poles and bed sheets and have you sailing by sunset. You provide the crane and I will bring the jigsaw to cut a hole in each deck. If we use a couple of metal buckets for mast steps I can knock up a hot brew of polyester resin and choppy to hold them in place.
Cheers
PS in all seriousness a client of mine made his junk rig sails from some sort of green tarp and they got him to NZ and back to Oz again!

Is that originally a Waller Coral Sea 35?
(Sorry to interrupt the thread)

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Benz

It does hold things steady, but I should point out that it's only a 35' mast, and it's a pretty stiff, hefty section, since it's a gaffer. But the stick is still light enough that two people can walk around with it. And that tabernacle is pretty beefy, since it was easy to overbuild and then sleep well.
I can't say I'd want to manhandle anything bigger, though if I had a bigger boat I'd have a schooner to keep the masts small.
The higher the hinge, the better control you have: look at the tabernacles on Thames barges and Broads boats, but there's a point at which tabernacle height looks ridiculous.
All that to say, I probably wouldn't put a tabernacle on a boat your size.

Ok, there is something I am not following.

You (and most sane people) say they wouldn’t put a tabernacle on a boat my size.

My question to anyone is: why?

I can’t see the difference between say, this 45-50ft boat and mine:



Why does the size of the boat have anything to do with it? A hobie cat has rudders. So does mine. They’re just bigger. A small boat has dagger boards. So does mine. They are just bigger.

I can’t understand why my boat can’t have a tabernacle. Only bigger.

Why?

[Chotu]

Maybe my overhang hesitation is not a problem either?

[captnknopf]

Is there any way you could make A frames for your shroud attachment points to get a pivot at the same height as the pivot on the tabernackle? That way as you lowered the mast, the center stays would stay tight. They could even be temporary soft stays just for raising and lowering the mast.

[Fore and Aft]

Chotu I think another part of the equation is the confidence to raise and lower such a big stick. A client with a 45 foot race yacht asked me to help lower his mast that was in a tabernacle. I was as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof while he was lowering the mast. Yet he was calm and made the whole episode look like nothing special.
FatCat your not wrong about the loads. We fell awkwardly of a wave on our Christmas cruise and I did wonder how the mast tabernacle was holding up.
NevilleCat I just googled junk rig cat and that was the image I found. If Chotu wanted to pivot the junk rig masts I could just cut a slot in the deck so the masts can pivot upwards easily. I believe there is a Phil Bolger design that does that. No need to worry about over hang either as the average power pole is only 35-40 feet long.
Cheers

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Ok, there is something I am not following.

You (and most sane people) say they wouldn’t put a tabernacle on a boat my size.

My question to anyone is: why?

I can’t see the difference between say, this 45-50ft boat and mine:



Why does the size of the boat have anything to do with it? A hobie cat has rudders. So does mine. They’re just bigger. A small boat has dagger boards. So does mine. They are just bigger.

I can’t understand why my boat can’t have a tabernacle. Only bigger.

Why?

Well, it sure can. Anything can be scaled up. But I am a limited size, so I'm limited in the scale of things I can handle. As things get bigger, they get heavier, harder to handle, and more unwieldly. Leverage increases exponentially what the top of the mast wants to do to the bottom of the tabernacle.
The bigger you go with something, the more machinery/mechanical advantage/heavier scantlings you need.
I wouldn't tabernacle your mast, but I'm a wimp who also doesn't want to reef a main bigger than 300 sf, because I'd need to add complexity (like reefing lines) and possibly buy winches. So I'm handicapped by my desire (need?) to keep things simple, easy, and cheap.
If you have the money/engineering/room/equipment to pull this off, it would be really cool. I just imagine a mast twice mine's height and I quail.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Benz

Well, it sure can. Anything can be scaled up. But I am a limited size, so I'm limited in the scale of things I can handle. As things get bigger, they get heavier, harder to handle, and more unwieldly. Leverage increases exponentially what the top of the mast wants to do to the bottom of the tabernacle.
The bigger you go with something, the more machinery/mechanical advantage/heavier scantlings you need.
I wouldn't tabernacle your mast, but I'm a wimp who also doesn't want to reef a main bigger than 300 sf, because I'd need to add complexity (like reefing lines) and possibly buy winches. So I'm handicapped by my desire (need?) to keep things simple, easy, and cheap.
If you have the money/engineering/room/equipment to pull this off, it would be really cool. I just imagine a mast twice mine's height and I quail.

Ah. Ok! Now I see.

Yes, this wouldn’t be a manually powered operation. Electric winches only. It’s way too heavy and difficult for anything less.

But there is an additional problem I’m thinking about. The last problem that could put an end to the idea.

I’d be using it to turn the boat into a power boat for the icw, going into a harbor for a couple weeks or going inland for long periods of time. Not to go under a single bridge repeatedly.

For this reason, I’d need to get the mast properly on deck for say, an ICW transit.

The mast base couldn’t stay at the tabernacle, it would have to go forward off the bow of the boat, to reduce rear overhang.

This part could be difficult.

All I can think of for this is an aft cradle point for the mast, a cradle point on the tabernacle and one on the seagull striker. Each with rollers. You could ratchet the thing forward and aft on the rollers.

BUT... removing the mast base from the tabernacle would be next to impossible if it looks like this when down, which it will. Getting the pin in and out would not be easy.




All the force from the overhang would be pushing forward on the tabernacle if you kept the gin pole in place as you lowered it to the cradles. OR... if you took the gin pole off, a big force would be pulling upward on the tabernacle. The minute you popped that pin out (assuming it would budge) the aft end of the mast would head to the water and the forward end would head for the sky, pivoting on the cradle at the aft edge of the deckhouse roof.

With those forces at play, how do you then ratchet the mast base forward off the bow for a proper long term resting place to do the icw?

Even more difficult, how do you ratchet it back again so the mast base is at the right spot over the tabernacle to insert the pin again?

Everything else seems doable.

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Ah. Ok! Now I see.



Yes, this wouldn’t be a manually powered operation. Electric winches only. It’s way too heavy and difficult for anything less.



But there is an additional problem I’m thinking about. The last problem that could put an end to the idea.



I’d be using it to turn the boat into a power boat for the icw, going into a harbor for a couple weeks or going inland for long periods of time. Not to go under a single bridge repeatedly.



For this reason, I’d need to get the mast properly on deck for say, an ICW transit.



The mast base couldn’t stay at the tabernacle, it would have to go forward off the bow of the boat, to reduce rear overhang.



This part could be difficult.



All I can think of for this is an aft cradle point for the mast, a cradle point on the tabernacle and one on the seagull striker. Each with rollers. You could ratchet the thing forward and aft on the rollers.



BUT... removing the mast base from the tabernacle would be next to impossible if it looks like this when down, which it will. Getting the pin in and out would not be easy.









All the force from the overhang would be pushing forward on the tabernacle if you kept the gin pole in place as you lowered it to the cradles. OR... if you took the gin pole off, a big force would be pulling upward on the tabernacle. The minute you popped that pin out (assuming it would budge) the aft end of the mast would head to the water and the forward end would head for the sky, pivoting on the cradle at the aft edge of the deckhouse roof.



With those forces at play, how do you then ratchet the mast base forward off the bow for a proper long term resting place to do the icw?



Even more difficult, how do you ratchet it back again so the mast base is at the right spot over the tabernacle to insert the pin again?



Everything else seems doable.

You can make an improvised A frame of two spinnaker poles with a fore guy and aft guy. Raise the mast off the deck then adjust the guys fore or aft to move the mast. You can do you same with a single, vertical pole, with guys four ways, then adjust the guys to move the mast in any direction.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

You can make an improvised A frame of two spinnaker poles with a fore guy and aft guy. Raise the mast off the deck then adjust the guys fore or aft to move the mast. You can do you same with a single, vertical pole, with guys four ways, then adjust the guys to move the mast in any direction. Attachment 251659

Hmmmm. Some food for thought. I’m noodling this out.

[Training Wheels]

Solent rig? What do you do with your furlers and headsail foils when you want to casually lower the mast to go under a bridge?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Solent rig? What do you do with your furlers and headsail foils when you want to casually lower the mast to go under a bridge?

Was someone else talking about a solent rig?

I’ll answer in case you’re talking about my fractional rig.

Same thing you do when you come along side the marina crane to have the mast taken down. You stow the sails.

Furler would have to go along for the ride with the mast.

But there is nothing casual about taking this mast down on the boat.

And there just might be too many heavy add ons to accomplish this.

Still, while I’m already getting a pedestal fabricated, might as well get it done like a tabernacle and just not use it yet until it seems like a priority