I Found a Rig

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I’m straining to see 2 tangs on each side in the pics. Can you point out what you see?

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...p;d=1602662255

This tang has been adapted to attachment points.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...p;d=1602662255

This tang has been adapted to attachment points.

What an eye!!!

Thank you for spotting that detail. I’ll have to look into that.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...5&d=1602662255



This tang has been adapted to attachment points.

Those look like really small through bolts and pin holes for a 50’ cat’s shrouds. This rig really came off a 50’ cat and didn’t have lower shrouds? Doesn’t look too good to me.

As a comparison, our slightly bigger boat’s rig has 25mm diameter bolts for the cap shrouds and 22mm toggle pins (for 12mm diamond shrouds and 14mm cap shrouds and forestay).

[Fore and Aft]

Fxykty that's exactly why Chotu needs to take an experienced rigger with him. They should be able to tell straight away if the rigs a good option or not.
Cheers

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Those look like really small through bolts and pin holes for a 50’ cat’s shrouds. This rig really came off a 50’ cat and didn’t have lower shrouds? Doesn’t look too good to me.

As a comparison, our slightly bigger boat’s rig has 25mm diameter bolts for the cap shrouds and 22mm toggle pins (for 12mm diamond shrouds and 14mm cap shrouds and forestay).

For $50,000, can I upgrade those? Or is that set in stone now that they are installed into the mast? I mean the boat was built at the Outremer yard and has circumnavigated so they did hold.

But I do appreciate the heads up since I don’t know what size they should be

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Fxykty that's exactly why Chotu needs to take an experienced rigger with him. They should be able to tell straight away if the rigs a good option or not.
Cheers

This is a good idea.

Can anyone refer me to a rigger for consultation in the Sarasota, FL area?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Edit: after closer look at the photos, that definitely isn’t a first generation Outremer rig unless after-market (maybe cut down to fit the ICW?). The Outremer rigs have two sets of swept back spreaders with a forward strut each and three part diamond stays, plus the in-line jumper spreaders to support the upper mast. Also seems a bit short for an Outremer 50 - on our 55 the mast is 19.2m.

The round section above the hounds probably won’t support a square top main. Though nothing much wrong with an elliptical roach and you avoid the hassles of a square top halyard connection.

You will need to replace all the wires, and probably tangs as well. Furler and foil may not be all that good anymore. The overall cost of the rig after refit won’t be all that much less than new, but if you can re-use the sails too that makes it more cost-effective. If the basic dimensions of the sails work for your boat.

This mast is 18 meters.

Not from an Outremer. It says the boat was built at the Outremer yard. It’s just a different old semi custom French cat. A Lazzi 1400.

Is it your opinion it’ll take $50,000-$60,000 USD to go sailing with this rig?

Because that’s the price difference from new.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Chotu

A tabernacle type rig would be my ultimate dream with this boat. I’ve tried to reason it out. However, I think the furling unit on the forestay makes it impossible, right?

I don't think the furler is the greatest obstacle, if you can sort out some way of releasing it from alow. The greatest obstacle for my little tabernacle-stepped mast (which is about 35' long), is controlling the lowering once it gets past 45 degrees. I can do it at anchor using the 15' boom as a gin pole, but it's lots better when I can set up a slightly higher sheer-legs and lower it with a tackle from there. You'd need a significant gin-pole/sheer legs setup to begin the hoist part or finish the lowering part. And then you'd still need a crane to move the thing. My mast can be carried by two people with ease (one person can stagger under it in an emergency), but anything bigger I just can't see manhandling around.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Benz

I don't think the furler is the greatest obstacle, if you can sort out some way of releasing it from alow. The greatest obstacle for my little tabernacle-stepped mast (which is about 35' long), is controlling the lowering once it gets past 45 degrees. I can do it at anchor using the 15' boom as a gin pole, but it's lots better when I can set up a slightly higher sheer-legs and lower it with a tackle from there. You'd need a significant gin-pole/sheer legs setup to begin the hoist part or finish the lowering part. And then you'd still need a crane to move the thing. My mast can be carried by two people with ease (one person can stagger under it in an emergency), but anything bigger I just can't see manhandling around.

It has to be done mechanically, not by hand. It would need some added specialized equipment. My girlfriend really wants this too. But it’s added weight and I’m just going to pass it by since it’s not very attainable.

We’ll just pull the mast with a crane if we are going inland somewhere.

[Chotu]

Anyone know a good rigger in Sarasota?

[morribabes]

I think you're overthinking this. Are you planning to race this boat or do you just want to sail here and there? Any kind of mast will hold up enough sails to do some kind of cruising. If you can't afford the price of the right rig buy whatever you can find that will fit. Better a mast that you can afford then the right mast that you can't. The difference between the best rig in the world and something good enough is probably 20 miles a day. Who cares?

[Manateeman]

Hi. I got a call from your friend this am. OK. This mast looks like a pretty good fit. SMJ has my cell if you want to call tonight.
I don’t think you need to jump on it. Thumbs up has given you some good advice. You can sit down with Principles of Yacht Design by Larsson and do all the calculations on both boats and both spars...this will take a bit of time.
You can pay a naval architect for an hour or two and the advice will be well worth it in terms of peace of mind.
Splicing is done all the time. I just converted 90 degree spreaders to swept aft with new spreaders /mast attachments and tips. Closing off halyard exit slots became a huge debate on boat design net. It’s the kind of fun discussion riggers and naval architects seem to enjoy. Don’t get bogged down in the minutiae.
Some of the posters are just trying to help...no flogging please.
It would be perfect to know the moms but someone might recognize the extrusion and know them. You can do a bit of reverse engineering but be careful as some extrusions with very different moms can look very similar.
If the shape is similar and the physical size is close and the wall thickness the same...then paying an architect will be money very well spent.
You are buying an extrusion so concentrate on that and not cosmetic stuff.
Moving things on the extrusion is not difficult. Used spars don’t fly off the shelf.
I’m assuming you have contacted ALL the spar builders and asked what is available. This extrusion looks very good but take you time.
Happy trails to you
Captain Mark and his rather slow motion manatees

[Chotu]

Can always count on the Manatees for some well balanced advice.

Thank you.

Question is, should I bring a rigger along on the first look? Or just go measure things up?

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Hi. I got a call from your friend this am. OK. This mast looks like a pretty good fit. SMJ has my cell if you want to call tonight.
I don’t think you need to jump on it. Thumbs up has given you some good advice. You can sit down with Principles of Yacht Design by Larsson and do all the calculations on both boats and both spars...this will take a bit of time.
You can pay a naval architect for an hour or two and the advice will be well worth it in terms of peace of mind.
Splicing is done all the time. I just converted 90 degree spreaders to swept aft with new spreaders /mast attachments and tips. Closing off halyard exit slots became a huge debate on boat design net. It’s the kind of fun discussion riggers and naval architects seem to enjoy. Don’t get bogged down in the minutiae.
Some of the posters are just trying to help...no flogging please.
It would be perfect to know the moms but someone might recognize the extrusion and know them. You can do a bit of reverse engineering but be careful as some extrusions with very different moms can look very similar.
If the shape is similar and the physical size is close and the wall thickness the same...then paying an architect will be money very well spent.
You are buying an extrusion so concentrate on that and not cosmetic stuff.
Moving things on the extrusion is not difficult. Used spars don’t fly off the shelf.
I’m assuming you have contacted ALL the spar builders and asked what is available. This extrusion looks very good but take you time.
Happy trails to you
Captain Mark and his rather slow motion manatees

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by morribabes

I think you're overthinking this. Are you planning to race this boat or do you just want to sail here and there? Any kind of mast will hold up enough sails to do some kind of cruising. If you can't afford the price of the right rig buy whatever you can find that will fit. Better a mast that you can afford then the right mast that you can't. The difference between the best rig in the world and something good enough is probably 20 miles a day. Who cares?

It’s hard not to overthink things when you take each and every post into consideration. It’s good to have the input, but sometimes the naysayers seem louder when you read through. And the naysayers have good points.

I’m with you here. I’m sure it’s probably no difference at all in miles per day, unless I leave it 5’ short of spec.

The big snag here is I’m building the boat for light air performance. So, I do need the sailing part to work well.


The other design philosophy, of this boat, apart from using a lot of simple, off the shelf equipment is to build a boat you can sail when it’s nice out. Calm sea states, nice weather and still be sailing. I’ve had way too many boats that need to motor unless a gale is up.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This mast is 18 meters.



Not from an Outremer. It says the boat was built at the Outremer yard. It’s just a different old semi custom French cat. A Lazzi 1400.



Is it your opinion it’ll take $50,000-$60,000 USD to go sailing with this rig?



Because that’s the price difference from new.

My mistake on the length, I saw 14m somewhere. 18m for deck step should be fine, albeit a bit short (our 55 with the 19m mast is a bit underpowered in light air, which we can partially fix with a screecher, but really we need to lighten ship by 2 tonnes to fit the rig. OTOH, we reef the main in 15 knots of wind).

Round section at top may not take the leach loads of a square top main, but that can be checked and fixed with some new stays. Same for a masthead spinnaker halyard.

Tangs, throughbolts, turnbuckles, wires all replaced. No idea in FL, but in NZ to pay a decent and inexpensive rigger to help it would cost ~NZD25-30K for materials and some labour. If the furler needs to be replaced then another NZD10K, or maybe just a couple boat $s to replace the bearings and shorten/lengthen the lower toggle. A lot depends on whether OEM parts exist for the furler and whether, if not, you’re willing to use any parts from anywhere.

If you want to replace the cap shrouds and running backstays with Dyneema, the initial hardware and fibre costs go up vs replacement with wire. But you save a heap of weight up high and the difference is NZD5K more. Leave the diamond stays wire; fibre is not appropriate.

The sails are another story, but will cost you regardless of whether you keep this rig or get new.

So, less than half the cost of new, even with Dyneema shrouds. If the rig is good enough, then you’re a set of sails ahead.

A good rigger for a couple of hours sounds like a reasonable expense, even for the first look, just to make sure it’s not a lemon for your boat or needs major work.