Hydranet sail material

[double u]

Tenara thread!

[Windswept-windy]

Originally Posted by double u

Tenara thread!

Double u....I searced "Tenara thread" with no results? Thanks!

[double u]

https://www.gore.com/products/sewing...r-applications
https://ullmansails.co.uk/home/produ...urance-series/
"...Endurance and Voyager Series sails can be upgraded to use Gore® Tenara® thread throughout the entire sail. Gore® Tenara® thread is hydrophobic and completely unaffected by UV degradation, salt water, extreme weather, chemicals, acid rain and more. Considering the importance of stitching, Ullman Sails strongly endorses using Gore® to hold your sail together."
more difficult to work with as very slippery & >100$/1000mspool - but insist on it

[Dockhead]

Hydranet sails stretch more or less like any woven sails do. So they keep their shape for about as long as the resin finish lasts, then not. So they are slowly losing their shape from the first mile like any woven sail.

Laminate sails are now night and day better than they used to be in terms of durability, and they are less expensive than they were, too. I think good cruising laminate sails are not more expensive than hydranet, and they hold their shape until they fall apart. If you care about shape and love to sail, I don't think there is any other rational choice.

Possibly Hydranet sails will last longer into their blown-out shape phase, but that wouldn't mean anything to me because I wouldn't be using them in that state. My sails are radial cut from Bainbridge carbon/technora laminate panels with Dyneema taffeta. I have 6 years on them and about 20,000 hard ocean miles and they are not showing any signs of wear at all. I would say they must have half their life life left or more. They were expensive, but not more expensive at the time than Hydranet. My sailmaker advised me at the time that Hydranet made no sense at all, that the new autoclaved laminates are not less durable and perform far better. I took that advice and have not regretted it.

[Windswept-windy]

Originally Posted by double u

https://www.gore.com/products/sewing...r-applications
https://ullmansails.co.uk/home/produ...urance-series/
"...Endurance and Voyager Series sails can be upgraded to use Gore® Tenara® thread throughout the entire sail. Gore® Tenara® thread is hydrophobic and completely unaffected by UV degradation, salt water, extreme weather, chemicals, acid rain and more. Considering the importance of stitching, Ullman Sails strongly endorses using Gore® to hold your sail together."
more difficult to work with as very slippery & >100$/1000mspool - but insist on it

Interesting & thank you!

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hydranet sails stretch more or less like any woven sails do. So they keep their shape for about as long as the resin finish lasts, then not. So they are slowly losing their shape from the first mile like any woven sail.

Laminate sails are now night and day better than they used to be in terms of durability, and they are less expensive than they were, too. I think good cruising laminate sails are not more expensive than hydranet, and they hold their shape until they fall apart. If you care about shape and love to sail, I don't think there is any other rational choice.

Possibly Hydranet sails will last longer into their blown-out shape phase, but that wouldn't mean anything to me because I wouldn't be using them in that state. My sails are radial cut from Bainbridge carbon/technora laminate panels with Dyneema taffeta. I have 6 years on them and about 20,000 hard ocean miles and they are not showing any signs of wear at all. I would say they must have half their life life left or more. They were expensive, but not more expensive at the time than Hydranet. My sailmaker advised me at the time that Hydranet made no sense at all, that the new autoclaved laminates are not less durable and perform far better. I took that advice and have not regretted it.

Dockhead....Very interesting. I am wondering why most sail loffs are not pushing laminate material? Or attempting to get rid of old new stock? Needless to say, how ever I go.... bottom line, I"m looking at an expensive package which justifies the research. My inventory will look something like this or other materials.

TRI-RADIAL TR 2200 HYDRANET INNER STAYSAIL
TRI-RADIAL TR 2200 HYDRANET FURLING MAINSAIL
TRI-RADIAL TR 2200 HYDRANET ROLLER REEFING GENOA
A2 ASYMMETRICAL
ATN Dousing Sleeve
STORM TRYSAIL
STORM JIB

Thank you and look forward to your replies!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Windswept-windy

. . . Dockhead....Very interesting. I am wondering why most sail loffs are not pushing laminate material? Or attempting to get rid of old new stock? Needless to say, how ever I go.... bottom line, I"m looking at an expensive package which justifies the research. My inventory will look something like this or other materials.

TRI-RADIAL TR 2200 HYDRANET INNER STAYSAIL
TRI-RADIAL TR 2200 HYDRANET FURLING MAINSAIL
TRI-RADIAL TR 2200 HYDRANET ROLLER REEFING GENOA
A2 ASYMMETRICAL
ATN Dousing Sleeve
STORM TRYSAIL
STORM JIB

Thank you and look forward to your replies!

I don't know. My sailmaker, a highly respect Solent guy who makes most of the Cowes Week sails, advised me that laminate was absolutely the way to go for my use case. He said that there is no downside with regard to durability, especially with the Dyneema taffeta on both sides, which is extremely chafe resistant (and slippery -- great for in-mast furling). He said that delamination just doesn't happen to the autoclaved material. And he said the type of carbon fiber now used is not especially vulnerable to flogging (all sailcloth is vulnerable to flogging, however). I don't have a single spot of mildew on my sails; I haven't washed them.



You'll have to make up your own mind, my experience is just one data point. But I, personally, would never buy any other kind of sail again. When I had them made, I figured I was giving up usable life in favor of shape and performance -- I didn't quite believe my sailmaker. For me it would have been worth it even like that. Then I was really surprised to see how well they have held up.



And you didnt' ask, but it's worth saying -- good sails are the best money hands down you can spend on your boat. Good sails totally transform the experience of sailing. It's not just faster and higher -- you have so much control over the shape, it makes sailing fun and interesting. Every small adjustment makes a big difference. My old Dacron sails were just rags in comparison -- these are WINGS, finely adjustable instruments.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And you didnt' ask, but it's worth saying -- good sails are the best money hands down you can spend on your boat. Good sails totally transform the experience of sailing. It's not just faster and higher -- you have so much control over the shape, it makes sailing fun and interesting. Every small adjustment makes a big difference. My old Dacron sails were just rags in comparison -- these are WINGS, finely adjustable instruments.

That sounds so so good! As a tinkerer and a bit of a perfectionist, I wish I could get that out of my sails, but their baggy shape just leave me feeling a bit dead! I'm definitely looking forward to doing something about it in the future!

[Joli]

Every material has pluses and minuses. We're happy with hydranet, it's held up well in it's first 10,000 miles of hard sailing, mostly upwind and reefed. It does stretch but with a rig that can be easily adjusted it hasn't been an issue. The sails have not gone deep or round. We'll probably replace them at 25,000 miles.

Laminates are mylar based which means shrink, sail shape goes away as the sails age. They also trap moisture within the laminate which means mold in the sail that cannot be cleaned. We have a mylar string sail from Doyle, it's shape is slowly changing and will need to be replaced fairly soon and the kevlar strings are failing. It has about 15,000 miles on it.

I don't think anyone is making Tedlar based sails anymore, Sobstad did but I think they are gone? Tedlar, unlike mylar, didn't shrink but was heavier and less durable.

North's 3Di are very nice sails with none of the shrinkage issues that mylar laminates have. They do have one shortcoming, $$$$$. The North 3Di main for our boat was $56,000, we declined.

If you are considering Hydranet sails it is best to work with a large loft and have the sails built in Australia. There is a big tarif on hydranet material if imported into the USA.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Joli

. . . Laminates are mylar based which means shrink, sail shape goes away as the sails age. They also trap moisture within the laminate which means mold in the sail that cannot be cleaned. We have a mylar string sail from Doyle, it's shape is slowly changing and will need to be replaced fairly soon and the kevlar strings are failing. It has about 15,000 miles on it.. . .

Cruising laminates with taffeta on both sides won't shrink -- the taffeta protects the mylar from UV light.


And modern laminates are made in autoclaves so that moisture can't get in.

There has been a lot of progress in laminate technology since your sails were made.

[Jim Cate]

DH, I can see the utility of such material in rolled sails but am wondering how it stands up to the kind of crushing and folding that sometimes occurs whilst reefing in the dark and stormy? Some folks can always manage perfect flaked bunts when reefing, but I sometimes fail, and especially the leech patches and surrounds get mangled. Older laminate sails didn't accept such abuse gracefully... how about this new and improved material?

Jim

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Cruising laminates with taffeta on both sides won't shrink -- the taffeta protects the mylar from UV light.


And modern laminates are made in autoclaves so that moisture can't get in.

There has been a lot of progress in laminate technology since your sails were made.

Actually I've raced for over 50 years and have purchased countless sails. Laminate sails have a very short life span from a racing standpoint. The mylar shrinks with time and temperature and the shape goes to hell. Sure the sail is still structurally sound after a season but you're off the pace compared to new sails. The only exception to this is the new North 3Di sails which use no mylar. They hold up exceptionally well.

For cruising it's tough to beat a woven material, the shape changes (deeper and round) but I don't know that it's any worse then laminate sails since they lose shape too.

Here's a primer for those so inclined.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/how-to/sail-materials-101/

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

DH, I can see the utility of such material in rolled sails but am wondering how it stands up to the kind of crushing and folding that sometimes occurs whilst reefing in the dark and stormy? Some folks can always manage perfect flaked bunts when reefing, but I sometimes fail, and especially the leech patches and surrounds get mangled. Older laminate sails didn't accept such abuse gracefully... how about this new and improved material?

Jim

I couldn't tell you, since all my sails are rolled.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Windswept-windy

...I probably should also have asked for a census Pro's & cons (maybe it should have been addressed in it's own thread) or please point to a existing thread....of setting up a cutter or sloop?...

There are a number of threads on this, a bit like anchors or guns. For my money, cutter all the way - and I don't currently have one. For a broad range of wind conditions I prefer the cutter, even though in the 80+% times when there are moderate winds you have to tack the headsail past the inner stay (that's the big con). But for the 10 or 20% (or more if you sail where Dockhead does) of the time when the wind pipes up having the sail center-of-effort of a reefed main and staysail located low and central on the boat (versus way forward with a small jib on the headstay) more than makes up for any cons. YMMV.

To me it is the most versatile of plans (more than a ketch IMO) and very well suited to globetrotting where you don't always have the option of staying home when the weather isn't perfect.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

DH, I can see the utility of such material in rolled sails but am wondering how it stands up to the kind of crushing and folding that sometimes occurs whilst reefing in the dark and stormy? Some folks can always manage perfect flaked bunts when reefing, but I sometimes fail, and especially the leech patches and surrounds get mangled. Older laminate sails didn't accept such abuse gracefully... how about this new and improved material?

Jim

I’ve asked a variety of sailmakers about this very issue, as we spend over 50% of our sailing time with first or second reef in place. Not so bad at the tack, but certainly crushing at the clew. Having an LFR for the reef line that sits behind the clew actually helps to prevent some crushing, but only our current third reef has that (giant clew blocks for first and second reefs). The HydraNet has handled it reasonably well.

Today’s higher end laminate and membrane sails generally no longer rely on brittle coatings or materials for UV and chafe resistance and their scrim films are not brittle like mylar. But they don’t really like sharp creases for long periods, so that’s still an issue with reefs that can stay on for days at a time. Note that even woven dacron can be subject to creasing and cracking, especially the stiffer samples.

For DH and others with fully furling sails not so much an issue. For slab reefing, one way to help avoid excessive crushing is to design the sail such that a batten is close below each reef clew. Keeping the sail stretched out below the clew helps prevent material bunching and crushing.

Note that the IMOCAs spend a lot of time with one or more reefs in their mains and they do quite a few miles with the same sail without failing. Of course, not so much data about longevity, but several boats are reusing sails from the previous edition and all the intervening training and racing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fxykty

. . . Today’s higher end laminate and membrane sails generally no longer rely on brittle coatings or materials for UV and chafe resistance and their scrim films are not brittle like mylar. But they don’t really like sharp creases for long periods, so that’s still an issue with reefs that can stay on for days at a time. Note that even woven dacron can be subject to creasing and cracking, especially the stiffer samples.. . .

I have no experience which would allow me to comment on that. That could very well be true as far as I know.


I don't reef my headsails at all. I change them. I use the infinitely reefling furling mainsail for small changes of sail area.