Hybrid standing rigging

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by wingssail

And if it's Dyneema, its from DSM.

I won't dignify the rest of your assertions because of this one statement, which demonstrates to me that you don't know much about line.

Apparently you don't know that DSM Dyneema makes fibre, and the various rope companies buy the fibre, and then weave/braid it into rope. Those weaving processes can vary, of course, and thence the fibre quality and finished rope don't necessarily have to coincide.

I can say that I've been using Dux for many years (do you even know who Erik Precourt is?) and have not had a failure. Since I think the mast falling down is a fairly bad thing to happen, I'll stick to a known good brand of rigging. Hampidjan was the company who invented the annealing process for UHMWPE line, FYI

Feel free to rant. You'll have the last word, because I'll have you on ignore.

[wingssail]

Since tamicatana says he has me on "ignore" this reply is for the rest of you.

Originally Posted by tamicatana

I won't dignify the rest of your assertions because of this one statement, which demonstrates to me that you don't know much about line.

Apparently you don't know that DSM Dyneema makes fibre,
wingssail post #15: "DSM is the parent company that owns the Dyneema brand and produces the fibres"


and the various rope companiesbuy the fibre, and then weave/braid it into rope.
wingssail post #15 :"Most other high end brands also sell a line of dyneema with pre-stretching and a heat setting process, as well as advanced UV resistant coating suitable for standing rigging"

Those weaving processes can vary, of course, and thence the fibre quality and finished rope don't necessarily have to coincide.

I can say that I've been using Dux for many years (do you even know who Erik Precourt is?) and have not had a failure. Since I think the mast falling down is a fairly bad thing to happen, I'll stick to a known good brand of rigging. Hampidjan was the company who invented the annealing process for UHMWPE line, FYI
Nope, I don't know who he is but I am sure I'd like to meet him. I don't know who you are either, and frankly, I don't care. If your rigging is as weak as your reading comprehension, I don't think it would be worth it.

It is terrific that Hampidjan invented the heat setting process, that does not mean they are the only ones who can do it (Even Chinese can)

Now which of my assertions were wrong?

[JPA Cate]

The last thing I read said every 4 years renewal for Dyneema. It may go longer if it has a cover over it to reduce UV damage.

The instructions for the dyneema splices are very clear about the need for proper tapering and length of bury. Jim is very careful with it.

We have it for oversized lifelines and running backstays. The rest of the rig has DIY swages (Norseman, and two that are Sea Rig), and is s/s 316, NOT 304.

Ann

[smj]

We have covered dyneema shrouds and supposedly the rigger cut the cover of 7 year old dyneema shrouds and the dyneema showed no signs of wear. Who knows what the lifespan is as I’m unaware of any dyneema standing rigging that has yet to fail?

[GILow]

This has been an interesting field of discovery for me. After a lot of reading I've come away feeling the issue is highly polarised. Not quite as bad as anchors though.

There seems to be a real divide in the professional riggers between those that insist synthetic rigging is instant death vs those that portray it as the solution to world peace and eternal life.

A cynical side of me wonders how much those opinions are influenced by profit margins.

I think I'll take a gamble and go hybrid. I like sailing upwind so my foresail and sheets are often close hauled. Despite the experience of others, my personality is such that I would worry about chafe.

Duly noting all the cautions about matching stretch. Thankfully a number of the synthetic rigging guys have published tables of equivalent stretch ratios so selecting rope is easier than it might have been. Likewise tapering the splices.

My next concern will be working out how many of the turnbuckles I can eliminate up high (if any) on my discontinuous rig. At least this time I have decided to bring the mast down to do the work. I've replaced the standing rigging once in situ, I have no desire to it again.

Thanks to all for sharing their viewpoints and experience.

[RaymondR]

One of the offshore drilling contractors I worked for made use of zinc sockets on the end of the hoisting wires on the drill floor. Zinc sockets provide 100% of the line strength and stop the ends passing through the blocks if a line gets free. Later on I worked with people who had used an epoxy called Socketfast instead of zinc and they swore by it as being as good as zinc.

After having a couple of failures with eye splices on braided rope I stopped using them and now only use stitching and binding. Both splices and stitching and binding are fiddly things to do and I have often pondered whether say SS sockets with an epoxy socketing material would be an effective method of terminating soft synthetic ropes.

[40 South]

I have been all Dux (except forestay, roller fuller) for 6 years. No problems yet. Dyneema jacket on lowers.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by 40 South

I have been all Dux (except forestay, roller fuller) for 6 years. No problems yet. Dyneema jacket on lowers.

That’s good to know. Any tips or suggestions? Perhaps some details of your rig?

[Happ]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

I recall wandering around the yard at Fremantle Sailing Club years ago and noticing that all the around the world racers had a section of galvanized wire on the lower ends of their dynema halyards when I asked why I was told they had had failures in the dynema where it went over the sheaves.

Generally not a good idea to mix materials with different moduli of elasticity but it might work with rigging if you manipulate the thicknesses.

I have seen rigging done like this so they can use a turnbuckle which allows for easier and more consistent tuning.

[Bill Gibbs]

I switched to Dux Dynex on my last boat, was paranoid about UV & chafe, and had it covered with black heat shrink (by Precourt). No exposed Dux. Was going strong at 12 years. My current boat I spec'd Dux again (from Colligo) and left it uncovered. I replaced it at 7 years on Colligo's advice, not because it looked especially bad.
A couple points on Spectra. It has more stretch than SS in the same size. It is usually sized to match the stretch of the SS it is replacing, which means larger dia. than the loads would require. Spectra creeps at loads in excess of 20% of breaking strength. So it should also be sized to not exceed this limit. It will be larger in diameter than the SS it replaces. New rigging has to be loaded to take a mechanical set, when all the fibers have settled in to their new loads. So expect to be tightening it the first few times it is used. Once it is fully set, the need to re-tighten should go away.
I suggest you discuss your needs with John Franta of Colligo Marine. This is all he does and is a great guy as well.

[merrydolphin]

I had a KP 44 for nearly ten years. And tens of thousands of miles. Great boat!

I replace the standing rigging once. Did it myself with traditional SS wire, swagged aloft and Sta-locks on deck.

I would not want to experiment with this. Yes, very tempting but still a think a bit early to get into it for a cruising boat. A hi-tech racer with professional hi-tech maintenance maybe, but not a KP44 with Joe Cruiser.

[col50]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

Brion Toss recommends 72x diameter tapered tail as I recall. I’ve been using UHMWPE for rigging for close to 20 years across several boats. I think highly of it.

For standing rigging you should use DynIce Dux and you can easily Google info about it

Who came up with that 72 times diameter burry ratio? 70 times was not close enough?

[RTN1]

+1 for John Franta at Colligo - he has the most knowledge on this subject of anyone in the US.

I have a hybrid setup on my Saga 43 sloop: Stainless forestays, backstay and upper shrouds since all of those can be subject to chafe from furlers, top mainsail batten or spreader ends respectively. I use Dux for my forward and aft lower shrouds that go directly from deck to mast, and for the backstay bridle. Reduced weight aloft by over 40 lbs.

The one issue that has not been mentioned regards shrinkage and expansion due to temperature changes: Stainless rigging and alu masts shrink when cold. Dyneema expands slightly as the temp drops. So if you sail in an area with extreme temperature swings you might have to adjust rig tension on very warm or very cold days.

I live and sail in Southern California where we have a moderate climate. But I can still see my lower shrouds standing at slightly reduced tension when the temperature (rarely) drops below 50 degrees F.

Overall, I think synthetic rigging is a great choice and if sized correctly with the splicing done with lengthy and smooth tapers it will always be stronger than wire. I wish my rig had discoutinuous uppers so I could go with synthetic higher up the mast.

After 4 years and about 8,000 miles on this setup, chafe has not been an issue.

Roger
S/V SoLunaMare

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I've been in contact with Mike Strong, at www.strongrope.com to see if this is standard practice. His answer is:

"No, [and regarding eye splices] if the buried end of the splice is the right length (approx 35cm bury) and the bury has been tapered ( this is also important) if yes to both of these points a rope that breaks at this point is normally a sign of excess loading, ie the rope strength is too low or the rope itself is poor quality." *

Since we used 4mm K78 dyneema from Marlow or Robson with minimum breaking strength of over 1800kg (4000lbs) I think the strength was sufficient. Must have been my splicing. Anyway it gives me doubt about the approach for standing rigging.

BTW, previously (for 30+ years), we used 1/4" stainless steel wire for halyards (and many other applications) and we had no halyard breakages with that, ever. Its working load limit is 1400lbs although the breaking strength is quoted at 7000lbs. It doesn't seem like we overloaded this dyneema.

Did you replace 1/4" stainless with 4mm dyneema ????

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Did you replace 1/4" stainless with 4mm dyneema ????

Yes, we did