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Old 05-08-2017, 01:21   #46
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

Here's one example where the direction of the diamond knot (direction of the "through the knot legs") has some influence. I modified the diamond knot by turning the working end legs towards the standing end, making it more like a "button knot" (where the working ends point to the same direction as the standing ends, and can be buried inside them).

Picture 1 is similar to the first picture of post #41. In picture 2 the working ends have been moved to the other side of each other. In picture 3 the working ends have been tucked through the knot. Picture 4 shows the tightened knot. The knot shall be tightened so that the last bends of the working ends (that were made in picture 3) stay at the top of the knot.

One can make an almost similar knot so that one tucks the working ends in a similar way through a normal finished diamond knot. Diamond knot is however usually tied so that the working ends are the "through the knot legs". If you make the knot as described above, the standing ends are the "through the knot legs". This provides a better support to the last bend of the working ends (at both sides), and they do not fall through the knot as easily as in some other variants (when tightened). Just a small difference that makes the button more stable.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:04   #47
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juho View Post
Here's one example where the direction of the diamond knot (direction of the "through the knot legs") has some influence. I modified the diamond knot by turning the working end legs towards the standing end, making it more like a "button knot" (where the working ends point to the same direction as the standing ends, and can be buried inside them).

Picture 1 is similar to the first picture of post #41. In picture 2 the working ends have been moved to the other side of each other. In picture 3 the working ends have been tucked through the knot. Picture 4 shows the tightened knot. The knot shall be tightened so that the last bends of the working ends (that were made in picture 3) stay at the top of the knot.
That works very well . I had played with poking the ends through, but without the twist you gave and that version is not very stable.
Your variation may work well for soft shackles for those people who can tie a Diamond, but who can't manange the Brion's Button. It is worth exploring this possibility.

I have also been mulling over the comment about how the Diamond may behave depending on which flip is chosen. I was a bit hasty in thinking it would not make any difference.

I think it may well perform differently when used as a stopper, not just if the legs are pulled in different directions. The standing leg passes over itself initially in the knot when tied the standard way and under itself when flipped the other way. This is bound to affect strength (the latter being weaker). What do you think?

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Old 05-08-2017, 08:17   #48
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

This was the only version I came up with that seemed to work when trying to bury the legs of the Diamond:
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:22   #49
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

I have just tried tying your version of the bury again. The knot does actually get flipped, so this may affect slippage. A long bury of the tails in the matching leg would probably fix this.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:53   #50
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I have just tried tying your version of the bury again. The knot does actually get flipped, so this may affect slippage. A long bury of the tails in the matching leg would probably fix this.
Yes, those variants where the standing end legs run through the knot may carry the risk of the knot "flipping back". This is the case at least when the knot is loose. If the knot is tight, it may hold better. One should test different knots to see when they are safe and when not.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:08   #51
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

This thread has sparked an interest for me to learn more knots.
I searched on Amazon and there are lots of books on knot tying.
Can anyone recommend a good book on the subject which includes the uses for each knot?
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:29   #52
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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Originally Posted by Cdreamin View Post
This thread has sparked an interest for me to learn more knots.
I searched on Amazon and there are lots of books on knot tying.
Can anyone recommend a good book on the subject which includes the uses for each knot?
I found the website Grog Animated Knots an excellent starting point. It gives animated instructions that you can pause at any stage. It can also be played as a mirror image. Useful information is added:
Boating Knots | How to Tie Boating Knots | Animated Boating Knots

This page lists the best knots for various uses:
Boating Knot Uses | What Boating Knot to Use | How to Choose a Boating Knot

The "bible" is the Ashley Book of Knots, but although this contains a wealth of information, I don't think this is the best place to start. Free pdfs can be downloaded online.

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Old 05-08-2017, 14:48   #53
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdreamin View Post
This thread has sparked an interest for me to learn more knots.
I searched on Amazon and there are lots of books on knot tying.
Can anyone recommend a good book on the subject which includes the uses for each knot?
You really should read this thread:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ok-130083.html

Apart from all the interesting discussion (at least interesting to knotaholics ) You will find a number of suggestions including this one:

http://uploads.worldlibrary.net/uplo...good_knots.pdf

(written by 75RR - a member of CF)
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Old 05-08-2017, 15:39   #54
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
...Apart from all the interesting discussion (at least interesting to knotaholics ) You will find a number of suggestions including this one:

http://uploads.worldlibrary.net/uplo...good_knots.pdf

(written by 75RR - a member of CF)
What an excellent presentation of the most practical and useful knots. Thank you StuM for mentioning this (and thanks 75RR for taking the trouble to produce such an excellent booklet, then release it free of charge!). Rarely have I seen such well-presented diagrams.

And good on you knotaholics for stimulating this discussion with your excellent pictures - hope you can find a way to test the new "Diamond Button" soon.
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Old 06-08-2017, 01:38   #55
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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And good on you knotaholics for stimulating this discussion with your excellent pictures - hope you can find a way to test the new "Diamond Button" soon.
If anyone wants to play with using a button made from a Diamond knot, below is how I tied the one in post #48.
Step 1: Tie a Diamond knot
Step 2: Poke the ends through as shown
Tighten up as usual.

It is not nearly as elegant as Brion's Button and I think the structure is inferior so I am not intending to use it, but it is a super easy way of converting the Diamond to a button if you want to bury the legs and create a high strength version of a soft shackle.

There are lots of variations possible to make a button from a Diamond. I tried a few while making a Crown Jewels soft shackle. Juho's is one I hadn't considered at all. These would need testing though before use to make sure that they didn't do something unexpected under load.
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:43   #56
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
If anyone wants to play with using a button made from a Diamond knot, below is how I tied the one in post #48.
Step 1: Tie a Diamond knot
Step 2: Poke the ends through as shown
Tighten up as usual.

It is not nearly as elegant as Brion's Button and I think the structure is inferior so I am not intending to use it, but it is a super easy way of converting the Diamond to a button if you want to bury the legs and create a high strength version of a soft shackle.

There are lots of variations possible to make a button from a Diamond. I tried a few while making a Crown Jewels soft shackle. Juho's is one I hadn't considered at all. These would need testing though before use to make sure that they didn't do something unexpected under load.
Some quick random observations:
+ hides the ends just as nicely as other button knots
+ risk of flipping over is small (maybe some tendency when it is loose)
+ the top of the knot is pretty and symmetric
- the bottom of the knot is not as pretty (the style of four symmetric ropes around the standing legs is lost)
- the four legs don't find their natural place very easily (maybe better when working ends are embedded inside the standing legs)
+ in general, looks like a working knot, but further tests would be good just as you proposed (also to see how it compares with Brion's Button Knot)
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:59   #57
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
Some quick random observations:
+ hides the ends just as nicely as other button knots
+ risk of flipping over is small (maybe some tendency when it is loose)
+ the top of the knot is pretty and symmetric

- the bottom of the knot is not as pretty (the style of four symmetric ropes around the standing legs is lost)
- the four legs don't find their natural place very easily (maybe better when working ends are embedded inside the standing legs)

+ in general, looks like a working knot, but further tests would be good just as you proposed (also to see how it compares with Brion's Button Knot)
I fully agree with the first negative. A couple of other minuses:

- The bottom of the knot is not as flat, which is less good.

- The knot is not as large as Brion's Button, so there is less overlap of the legs once they are bulkier when buried.

Not sure about the legs finding their natural place though, they seem to sit OK when it is tightened up. Their location is the same as it is in an ordinary Diamond. The working ends coming through sit adjacent rather than pushing them out further.

I think Brion's Button is still vastly superior . If people have the patience to learn to tie a Diamond knot, I think they are capable of tying Brion's Button as well, so the usefulness of any Diamond Button place is limited.

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Old 06-08-2017, 03:56   #58
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Yep, IMNSHO:
Button knot is stronger.- the shackle loop runs around four legs rather than two giving a wider turning radius.
Button knot is neater - no exposed ends.
Button knot is more secure - tails buried in legs.
button knot appears anything but safe, but sure looks pretty. Before one tightens it, cap can be pulled 'out' and there is no knot left.

As it is difficult to tighten button knot to the same level as diamond, chance of dyneema shackle slipping under tension and inverting button and get undone is high.

diamond does not have this issue.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:15   #59
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

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As it is difficult to tighten button knot to the same level as diamond, chance of dyneema shackle slipping under tension and inverting button and get undone is high.

How "high" a chance?

Does anyone here know of any instance where a suitably pre-tensioned soft shackle button has inverted and failed. It's certainly never happened to me and I've never heard of this happening to anyone else.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:26   #60
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Re: How to tie a Diamond Knot

Here's one more knot for discussion. It is at least big. Doubling ensures this. The role of doubling is also that the other rope segment maintains the structure of the knot when the other segment dives through the knot. This knot has button style / four legs in one direction (to hide the working ends and to increase turning radius). It has some connection to flipping since the "through the knot legs" are the standing ends. It is about as symmetric as a button knot can be.

Picture 1 starts the process from a carrick bend. In picture 2 the ends are brought up through the middle of the knot, but unlike in the diamond knot, they do not need to go around the standing ends (the knot gets uglier if you do that). In picture 3 the knot is tightened a bit. Note how the working ends come up from the edges of the knot. You may need to bend the "hem" of the knot downwards twice to reach this form. The working ends lie now next to the incoming (through the knot) standing ends. In picture 4 the knot has been doubled so that the working ends follow the standing ends (in reverse direction), starting where the working and standing ends met each others. When the ropes are about to start third parallel round, don't do that but dive through the knot towards the standing ends.

When doubling, the working end can follow the standing end either above or below it. The knot may be a bit prettier when the working end is below (towards the standing part) the standing end. You can tie it also so that one working end is above and the other one below its standing end.

This knot is quite large. It could be useful in soft shackles that use a thin rope (that may be tied in multiple loops instead of only one).
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