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Old 09-06-2022, 05:02   #1
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Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Hi all
I need to form some eyes (without a thimble) in some Class II double braid rope. My first attempt resulted in an eye with insufficient cover and I am trying to work out why this occurred.

I am following Samsonís instructions:

https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/defa...rsn=2baf982e_2

As far as I can see:

Using Samsonís notations, for the eye the length of the cover is the distance X1 to X2 and the length of the core is Mark 1 to Mark 2.

The difference in length between the the core and cover is Z1-Z2, which is a fixed length of 1 inch.

This may work for ďaverageĒ sized line with an ďaverageĒ sized small eye, but how can this be a universal formula? Samson do not specify that their instructions are only for small eyes.

My eye is larger than used with a thimble. My cover has ended up too short to cover the core, which is understandable if I have correctly interpreted the meaning of the measurements.
Edited to add: scrap that, I accidentally mixed up Z1 & Z2

In my view, Samsonís instructions are usually excellent (apart from those for eye splicing old double braid) so I am hesitant fudging my next attempt by simply increasing the size of Z1.

Can anyone please shed any light on this?

SWL
(Feeling pretty stupid not being able to work out why my splice failed when I have followed the instructions exactly)
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Old 09-06-2022, 10:56   #2
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Please disregard the Samson directions--there's a far better way, and one that doesn't leave a cover flap hanging, but buries it nicely.
Unable to find any online directions for the proper way (it's just handed down from rigger to rigger, I guess), I posted a descriptive slideshow of how to do it on my website.
Covered Eye Splice - Cruising with the Zartman Family
If that link doesn't work, you can find it under the "Splicing Instructions" tab on the far right of the homepage at Cruising with the Zartman Family - A Small Boat, A Growing Family, A Big Dream, then clicking on "Covered Eye Splice"
I've spliced the Samson way before, but all that Z1 and Z2 mumbo-jumbo muddles the brain, so I can't guess what went wrong with yours.
Best of luck.
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Old 09-06-2022, 11:08   #3
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post

In my view, Samsonís instructions are usually excellent (apart from those for eye splicing old double braid)................
Your skills far outshine mine. I have the Samson Splicing Manual and find I have to go through the instructions several times and my first attempt is always a trial with scrap rope. I often find their manual and diagrams awkward and tough to follow, at least tough to start.

In splicing large loops in 8-plait, I find I have to mark many more picks than the Samson guide suggests or else I don't have to enough to make the requisite tucks.

Again, I'm just starting.
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Old 09-06-2022, 11:18   #4
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Please disregard the Samson directions--there's a far better way, and one that doesn't leave a cover flap hanging, but buries it nicely.
Unable to find any online directions for the proper way (it's just handed down from rigger to rigger, I guess), I posted a descriptive slideshow of how to do it on my website.
Covered Eye Splice - Cruising with the Zartman Family
If that link doesn't work, you can find it under the "Splicing Instructions" tab on the far right of the homepage at Cruising with the Zartman Family - A Small Boat, A Growing Family, A Big Dream, then clicking on "Covered Eye Splice"
I've spliced the Samson way before, but all that Z1 and Z2 mumbo-jumbo muddles the brain, so I can't guess what went wrong with yours.
Best of luck.
Thanks Ben .

SWL
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Old 09-06-2022, 12:53   #5
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Book. —- Riggers apprentice by Brion Toss.
Only way to go. It isn’t easy but it is neat.
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Old 09-06-2022, 15:57   #6
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

I don't now what a class 2 double braid is, but for a classic double braid eye splice I have always used the New England Ropes instructions, PDF here: https://www.neropes.com/fileadmin/us...aid_Splice.pdf I have found it to not be too difficult and results in a handsome splice.

Greg
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Old 09-06-2022, 16:14   #7
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Please disregard the Samson directions--there's a far better way, and one that doesn't leave a cover flap hanging, but buries it nicely.
Unable to find any online directions for the proper way (it's just handed down from rigger to rigger, I guess), I posted a descriptive slideshow of how to do it on my website.
Covered Eye Splice - Cruising with the Zartman Family
If that link doesn't work, you can find it under the "Splicing Instructions" tab on the far right of the homepage at Cruising with the Zartman Family - A Small Boat, A Growing Family, A Big Dream, then clicking on "Covered Eye Splice"
I've spliced the Samson way before, but all that Z1 and Z2 mumbo-jumbo muddles the brain, so I can't guess what went wrong with yours.
Best of luck.
Your instructions with photos are very clear and the commentary brought a smile. I too have gazed at the core “in satisfaction” when I have finally managed to coax it out with ”gentle violence”.

Your technique is actually fairly close to Samson’s except you also very neatly bury the cover (and you avoid complicating the issue with Z measurements by pulling 6” of core out initially). I will have a go doing this, but I suspect I may not succeed in burying the cover (even Brion Toss did not attempt this in his instructions). Yale cover must have a reasonably loose weave. My cover has a tight weave and I really struggled getting the last few inches of buried core to slide in, even without any cover included in the bury. I think it is worth a go though, as whipping the loose cover on at the end is messy looking. Your finished result looks much better.

Take 2 will be attempted tomorrow .

SWL
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Old 09-06-2022, 16:26   #8
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
I don't now what a class 2 double braid is, but for a classic double braid eye splice I have always used the New England Ropes instructions, PDF here: https://www.neropes.com/fileadmin/us...aid_Splice.pdf I have found it to not be too difficult and results in a handsome splice.

Greg
Hi Greg
Class 2 double braid is core dependent (this includes braids with cores of UHMWPE such as Spectra, Dyneema Stealth-12 etc), unlike Class 1 double braids (such as all polyester) where the strength is divided between core and cover.

The instructions you have attached are for Class 1 where the buried cover contributes mainly to eye splice strength.

For Class 2 double braid the core needs to be buried in itself, just as it does for single braid UHMWPE long bury splices, and then this is buried in the cover.

SWL
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Old 09-06-2022, 20:20   #9
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Seaworthy Lass,

My splicing skills are far behind yours. I, too, struggled with the Samson instructions, though as I interpreted them, I had the cover eye slightly larger/longer than the core eye. I followed the instructions and it did work, though you can feel that the cover is slightly loose over the core in the eye. I wonder whether that is designed to make sure that the core is taking all of the load. In any case it seems fine.

As to the tail, after whipping the loose cover flap down, I slid some heat shrink tubing over it. I think it presents a neater appearance.

I tried a few that buried the cover but it was very hard to get a clean looking bury.
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Old 10-06-2022, 03:17   #10
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ View Post
Book. —- Riggers apprentice by Brion Toss.
Only way to go. It isn’t easy but it is neat.
Armed with a pot of tea and some chocolate I delved into the nitty gritty of Brion’s technique this morning.

I am afraid I have been left scratching my head. You may be able to help since you have followed Brion’s instructions successfully.

The first stumbling block is the reason for Core Mark #2 that is 8 diameters up from Core Mark #1, which is described as 1/3 of a Dacron cover tail length. Why is the Dacron cover tail of any significance? Brion does not bury it at the end, he leaves it outside the splice, just as Samson does.

It went downhill from there .

The eye size is from Core Marks #1 to #3, yet the core tail is buried until Core Marks #2 and #3 coincide. Does that mean that after marks #2 & 3 disappear into the cover you need to continue burying what are now a twin portions of core in the cover until the correct eye size is reached? If so, why set things up this way if the cover is not being buried in that portion?

Brion also leaves no allowance for what Benz calls a “cheat” length (and what Samson refer to as Z). This means there is no extra cover length allowed for the section where the cover must bunch up to accomodate the buried core, making the bury of this extra difficult. Brion must have had superhuman strength .

SWL
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Old 10-06-2022, 03:44   #11
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailbaum View Post
Seaworthy Lass,

My splicing skills are far behind yours. I, too, struggled with the Samson instructions, though as I interpreted them, I had the cover eye slightly larger/longer than the core eye. I followed the instructions and it did work, though you can feel that the cover is slightly loose over the core in the eye. I wonder whether that is designed to make sure that the core is taking all of the load. In any case it seems fine.

As to the tail, after whipping the loose cover flap down, I slid some heat shrink tubing over it. I think it presents a neater appearance.

I tried a few that buried the cover but it was very hard to get a clean looking bury.
I am in awe of Benz being able to bury the cover and produce such a beautiful looking eye splice in Class II double braid. I have just attempted this and I couldn’t get the cover to bury. I suspect that apart from experience, the difference in rope brands accounts partly for this. I am using a cover with a very tight weave and also the core has been coated for UV protection and abrasion resistance (so that the cover can be stripped in portions if needed) and that may be contributing to making it more difficult. At least that is my excuse for my incompetence .

I discovered what caused the cover of the eye to be too small for my first attempt using Samson’s technique. I stupidly mixed up Z1 and Z2 so that instead of the cover being 1” longer than the core it ended up being 1” shorter .

I am not sure why Samson specify the cover to be 1” longer than the core for the eye (it does produce a slightly baggy cover, which as Benz aptly says in his instructions looks “gauche”), but I agree with you that it certainly does ensure that the cover is not at all load bearing and this is critical. The 1” surplus is oddly the same regardless of line size or eye size. Both Brion Toss and Benz make no such allowance. Benz’s lack of this works as the cover length can actually be adjusted at the end since the cover is buried and does not restrict equalisation taking place with a decent yank. Brion Toss’s method I am afraid I do not fully understand.

Back to splicing here . I have a bunch of these to do, as I am replacing all our sheets. I am attacking these confidently now.

SWL
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Old 10-06-2022, 08:19   #12
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Thanks for the kind words, SWL. I see I need to re-format the instructions, since the last software update appears to have taken away the subtitles in the galleries until you hover over them....blogging is harder than splicing for me, and I apologize if the presentation is awkward.
Anyhoo, different brands of rope have differently proportioned covers that can make the last little bit hard to bury, but I've never met a new rope (whether Yale, Samson, NER, Marlow, Maffioli, or any other) that that technique did not work on. Sometimes, especially with 8mm Marlow, it takes some serious hammering and jerking to get it in; sometimes I have to pull the tail out and reduce volume a little to get it in, but it eventually goes.
It mostly takes perseverance, and seems impossible at first, but I'm confident you can master it.
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Old 10-06-2022, 09:09   #13
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
….
Anyhoo, different brands of rope have differently proportioned covers that can make the last little bit hard to bury, but I've never met a new rope (whether Yale, Samson, NER, Marlow, Maffioli, or any other) that that technique did not work on. Sometimes, especially with 8mm Marlow, it takes some serious hammering and jerking to get it in; sometimes I have to pull the tail out and reduce volume a little to get it in, but it eventually goes.
It mostly takes perseverance, and seems impossible at first, but I'm confident you can master it.
That is a challenge I can’t resist . With Class I double braid I manage to squeeze in two lots of core and the cover just below the base of the eye when creating eye splices so eventually I may not find it impossible in Class II double braid as well.

I will persist then, although I only have enough excess line to destroy one failed splice on each section so the number of attempts I have is limited.

Pulling the core out of the cover twice is the worst bit initially. Next time I may try just doing this once (on the far side of the eye) then I will feed the core back through the cover to the second pull out point as Brion Toss instructs. Have you tried this method? It seems it would be easier.

SWL
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Old 10-06-2022, 12:36   #14
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Three hours later and I have admitted defeat. Suddenly adding whipping or heatshrink tubing to secure the exposed tail of the cover looks very appealing .

I was oh so very, very close at the end, perhaps a cm short of complete bury of the cover, but it simply would not shift any further. My arms are aching and I have managed to shred the polyester cover of the eye. I have attached a photo.

The only benefit is that is will now seem very easy to simply bury the core on its own .

By the way, I only extracted the core once this time (at the far end of the eye). I then fed the core to emerge at the point where the first extraction would normally be. It was dramatically easier skipping one of the extractions.

So I am back to Samson’s technique with a little bit of Brion Toss thrown in (equalising core and cover at the beginning and doing only one core extraction) and a little bit of Benz (pulling the core out by Z amount at the beginning instead of stuffing around with extra marking). I think Samson are overly generous with making the cover 1” longer than the core in the eye portion and it results in a slightly baggy eye, so I will make this allowance a little less next time, otherwise my measurements (and basic principle of method) will follow Samson’s.

My conclusion after all this:
If you want beautiful Class II double braid eye splices with a buried cover, contact Benz. It is not worth the pain (mental and physical) of learning how to achieve this if you only have a small number of these to do. Leave it to the experts.

Thanks everyone for all the comments and help.

SWL

My final failed attempt. I will now revert to leaving the cover tail unburied:
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Old 10-06-2022, 12:51   #15
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Re: Help needed splicing Class II double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
That is a challenge I canít resist . With Class I double braid I manage to squeeze in two lots of core and the cover just below the base of the eye when creating eye splices so eventually I may not find it impossible in Class II double braid as well.

I will persist then, although I only have enough excess line to destroy one failed splice on each section so the number of attempts I have is limited.

Pulling the core out of the cover twice is the worst bit initially. Next time I may try just doing this once (on the far side of the eye) then I will feed the core back through the cover to the second pull out point as Brion Toss instructs. Have you tried this method? It seems it would be easier.

SWL
I have tried the NER method, which does the same single extraction as the Brion Toss, but it doesn't allow for a cover tail bury, so I eschew it.
Looking at the picture you posted after this post I'm replying to, it seems that you could have got that last little bit buried if you'd made the crossover of the cover bury just a little further down the bury. From the eyemark, you should have about and inch of cover over the core before the crossover and core tail bury. That way you ensure that the crossover can go deep into the splice and never have a chance to show. So close! Don't give up now!
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