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Old 22-02-2021, 13:31   #1
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Headstay too short?

I just had all new wire installed. Headstay, shrouds, mids, lowers and backstay w/legs.
Old furler off and new furler installed.
Rigger goes to attach second backstay leg it's 4-6" too short. Spin turnbuckles all the way open still doesn't reach.
Detach headstay, tilt rig back to attach legs with turnbuckles maxed out, slide furling unit up to access turnbuckle within, max that out and headstay is still 1/2" too short.
Riggers solution is to now attach a toggle to bottom of headstay. Which he wants to do day after tomorrow.
I look in Facnor furler manuel when I get home and there's a picture clearly showing that config with a big red "X" through it. See page 10....
http://www.facnor.com/uk/technical_s...fd2019_web.pdf
This seems wrong. If the old headstay was measured properly shouldn't the new headstay plug right in with lower turnbuckle set so it can be adjusted an equal distance longer or shorter to adust rake?
In addition, the the upper eye was too small for the toggle pin so after attempting to drill out the eye 1mm with a hand drill (yup) rigger simply found a smaller pin. Does that not reduce the contact footprint of pin in toggle and is that an issue down the miles?
I think the rigger didn't measure right and should fab a new forestay.
Am I being unreasonable?
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Old 22-02-2021, 13:37   #2
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Re: Headstay too short?

It can be tough to get these installed with a furler on the head stay. The furler is HEAVY, and sags a lot. It can be very tough to pull hard enough by hand alone to get enough of the sag out that the the pins fit in even with the turnbuckles all the way out. I would assume a professional rigger knows this... but then I would assume a pro would get the length right too.

When ever I have done this, I have needed a handy billy to pull the sag out enough to fit it.

If the problem is that it is actually too short, you are 100% in your rights to tell the rigger to try again and get it right. But from a practial matter, an extra toggle isn't the end of the world either.
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Old 22-02-2021, 13:56   #3
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Re: Headstay too short?

Have you paid him? Discount the amount for a proper headstay until he replaces it. You hire a rigger to get it done right. You want plenty of adjustment , not "barely fits" anyway. You want a proper sized pin.
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Old 22-02-2021, 14:30   #4
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Re: Headstay too short?

The old wire was already stretched. All wire stretches some, but some more than others. 6" too short does seem to me to be a measuring problem. We made the error, once, of cutting to the exact length of the used wire, and had a headstay come up 2" too short. We were able, eventually, to get it hooked up without adding an extra toggle, and tuned the rig (there are articles you can read about how to do it). We used sta-loks or Norseman or Sea Rig, different times, and based on availability.

I would not be happy with going to a smaller pin, at all. Who can tell you in detail is a rig engineer, to whom you give the data, size and type of wire (314 or 316, 1 x 19? compact strand?), type of mast (single or double spreader, or "x") and calculate the data for the whole rig under various sets of sail.

Some riggers will try to blow smoke, and without the engineer's input, you won't really know how to handle the situation. If you learn all about it, he'll see that you are knowledgeable, and perhaps you can come to a reasonable agreement. A possible compromise would be that he replaces the wire for free and you don't sue him.

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Old 22-02-2021, 15:32   #5
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Re: Headstay too short?

If you have the old rigging, its easy to tell if the rigger made a measuring mistake. Don't settle for an undersized pin--all the load is concentrated in a small area.
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Old 22-02-2021, 16:16   #6
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Re: Headstay too short?

Maybe put the extra toggle at the top, not under the furler.
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Old 22-02-2021, 16:37   #7
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Re: Headstay too short?

Turnbuckles should not be maxed out, you want to have that availability of adjustment. If the rigger created the stay to the wrong size, require a new one made 100%.
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Old 22-02-2021, 19:01   #8
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Re: Headstay too short?

There is no way I would accept a smaller pin.

On top of that, the stay is too short.

No, not acceptable.
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Old 22-02-2021, 20:40   #9
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Re: Headstay too short?

IMO, this rigger has demonstrated poor workmanship followed by a sleazy attempt to get out of responsibility to make it good. Don't accept the small pin or the too-short stay.

Jim
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Old 22-02-2021, 21:03   #10
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Re: Headstay too short?

A extra toggle on the forestay could be acceptable if the angle between top roller and the hallyard guide stays the same. would not accept it in this case though.


Undersized pin? HELL NO! The oversized hole will elongate over time, and the pin is not what the engineer designed for.


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Old 22-02-2021, 22:10   #11
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Re: Headstay too short?

To be clear, rigger used toggle and pin from old rig on top of forestay. Old pin was 1~2mm larger than the new eye swage he tryed to drill out but fit toggle correctly so pin he did install fits eye swage correctly but is 1~2mm smaller diameter than hole in toggle.
So, not wildly undersized but not perfect.
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Old 22-02-2021, 22:57   #12
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Re: Headstay too short?

To be clear

The pin is undersized for the toggle.

Strength and durability is based on a close fit where the load is shared over as large as possible surface.

The undersized pin will elongate the toggle hole due to high point loading.
The pin will be set up for premature failure due to wear from the elongated hole.
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Old 22-02-2021, 23:09   #13
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Re: Headstay too short?

Whilst not the same application, my rigger made two cap shrouds a few inches too short requiring toggles to make them fit. I reluctantly accepted that as a solution and ended up with a ďledgeĒ of overhanging toggle that snags the jib sheet every time I tack. I regret that decision and I curse the rigger and his whole family every time I have to wind in 10 metres of jib sheet on a winch after tacking.

Tell the rigger to make the stay again and to get it right the second time. If itís too short thatís exclusively his problem and you will end up kicking yourself for allowing it to become yours.

No amount of discount will convince me to accept toggles as a fix for the riggerís incompetence, not even getting the whole job for free. Get it right or get lost.
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Old 23-02-2021, 04:38   #14
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Re: Headstay too short?

This is why I avoid doing wire shrouds for people any more--you can't always match new hardware to old, and clients insist that you get a 6mm pin hole on a swage for 3/32" wire (or whatever--you get the idea). There is an astonishing variety of fittings, eyes, and terminals, and sometimes the original had a funky part or a drilled-out hole that the rigger can't know about and is impossible to replicate.
It's important to keep the old wires around until the job is done to ensure that measurements were right, and if you outsource your swaging, to be sure they measured like you: pin-center to pin center, or bearing point to bearing point.
Point is, there's a lot of moving parts, and a lot that can go wrong. Be kind to your rigger, even while insisting that he get the job done right.
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Old 23-02-2021, 15:53   #15
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Re: Headstay too short?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Be kind to your rigger, even while insisting that he get the job done right.
I did, and he said he would.
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