Halyard strength - Why so much

[Joh.Ghurt]

A more modern solution is to use a hook at the masttop. In this case the halyard is used exclusively to raise and lower the sail. When in use, the Halyard has no forces on it, the sail is attached to the mast via the hook . In this case the Halyard can be a lot thinner.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

A more modern solution is to use a hook at the masttop. In this case the halyard is used exclusively to raise and lower the sail. When in use, the Halyard has no forces on it, the sail is attached to the mast via the hook . In this case the Halyard can be a lot thinner.

That's a halyard lock, but is really a racer thing. Doesn't work well as soon as you need to take a reef.

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

..........So why do we need a line capable of handling thousands of pounds when I know that we're not putting anything like that tension on it in other circumstances.............

Great question.........If a halyard breaks because it wasn't strong enough when it was calculated to be strong enough, there could be legal consequences. Besides I also use my spare halyard to climb my mast with the topping lift secured to me as a safety line so I want them to be low stretch, i.e., high stiffness, and high breaking strength. If you want to try to calculate halyard loads check this link out.

https://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-a...-halyard-loads

[Gary Mc]

Anglais, are you looking to buy new halyards? If so your boat likely had wire to rope halyards originally and if that is still the case then you have a couple of things to look at. First the sheaves will only handle a certain size line, maybe only 5/16". You should check. Then your sheaves may be chewed up by the wire over the years so you might want to replace them so as not to damage your new rope halyards.

1/2" is a pretty big halyard for your size of boat. My boat has the same sail area and I bought new halyards, 2 jib, 1 spin and one main. They are 5/16" except the main which is 3/8". I would buy 5/16 for the main as well next time.

Mine are Endurabraid which has a dyneema core for very low stretch, the 5/16" has a tensile of 8100 #. But you could go with Sta Set X which is a good quality double braid polyester and 5/16 is good for 4400#, likely still plenty.
Good Luck

[pitlaw]

Anglias
Try this to get your spinnaker halyard down: clip a half gallon jug with milk or water to you Main Halyard. Tie a down haul line to it. Raise it to the spin halyard if there is enough tail on the spin H. Slowly wrap the main halyard 2-3 SS around with the milk jug just below the spin shackle. Then haul down. It may take 2-3 tries but it will save you the trouble of going aloft. FWIW

[David B]

Originally Posted by wingssail

A few of lessons: I will never go aloft on a single halyard again. I am going to run all my halyards up and into the inside of the mast when not in use, and I am going to worry about other use of these light lines (such as lifelines and running backstays).

A pain as it is, that back-up is important. Ultimately I will go with an ascender on a tight second halyard, but currently, I have two soft double braid lines that I tie off on the mast as prusik loops - there is always at least one tied off as back-up, such as crossing the spreaders.

Curious as to what you mean by 'running all your halyards up and into the mast when not in use'. On the face of it, that implies more than twice the normal length of halyard loosely stowed in the mast. Apart from how you get the halyard in there, that's asking for loop-knots to form behind the exit slots or sheaves.

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

Okay, blame this one on lockdown boredom, brain freeze, or whatever. A discussion on another forum noted that the consensus for my boat is 3/8" for spinnaker halyards and 1/2" for main and foresail halyards. Right off I don't understand why the difference but it goes on.

And I'm going to have to check when I have access to the boat because I'm not sure that's what I have.

But in any case, this means lines with thousands of pounds breaking strength.

So, as a result of an "oops" moment, I'm going to have to go up the mast to retrieve a spinnaker halyard. I know from experience that this will require help because my wife isn't strong enough to winch me up the mast. But she can raise the main if she has to.

I weigh 145 pounds.

So why do we need a line capable of handling thousands of pounds when I know that we're not putting anything like that tension on it in other circumstances.

I'll repeat the apology because I sense that this is a really stupid question, but it has been a long winter and brain and body are currently in shutdown.

Breaking strain almost irrelevant - the big feature is lack of stretch - hnce the use of wire halyards.
The rope tail needs to be of sufficient diameter to handle, anything under 12mm is unmanageble.

[Mirage35]

Originally Posted by pitlaw

Anglias
Try this to get your spinnaker halyard down: clip a half gallon jug with milk or water to you Main Halyard. Tie a down haul line to it. Raise it to the spin halyard if there is enough tail on the spin H. Slowly wrap the main halyard 2-3 SS around with the milk jug just below the spin shackle. Then haul down. It may take 2-3 tries but it will save you the trouble of going aloft. FWIW

Interesting idea - I think I'll give that a try.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by David B

A pain as it is, that back-up is important. Ultimately I will go with an ascender on a tight second halyard, but currently, I have two soft double braid lines that I tie off on the mast as prusik loops - there is always at least one tied off as back-up, such as crossing the spreaders.

Curious as to what you mean by 'running all your halyards up and into the mast when not in use'. On the face of it, that implies more than twice the normal length of halyard loosely stowed in the mast. Apart from how you get the halyard in there, that's asking for loop-knots to form behind the exit slots or sheaves.

Running the halyards up is a protective measure for the portion which is bare dyneema. These are "tapered" halyards, meaning that 1/2 of the halyard, the tail, is covered (has rope's the original polyester cover) but the other half (the half with the shackle on it) is bare dyneema. I supposed, from reading, that the dyneema was pretty much impervious to UV. Based on my experience, maybe not.

So I will tie a length of small stuff to the shackle and pull the halyard aloft. This places the bare dyneema inside the mast and out of the reach of the sunlight. The tail, which is covered, is pulled out, and coiled into a bag at the base of the mast. I wanted to avoid the hassle of this but it is quite common on boats with expensive tapered halyards.

[sail sfbay]

So if you want to calculate the MINIMUM breaking strength of a halyard you can use the formulas in the article:

https://www.premiumropes.com/rope-ad...heets-halyards

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by sail sfbay

So if you want to calculate the MINIMUM breaking strength of a halyard you can use the formulas in the article:

https://www.premiumropes.com/rope-ad...heets-halyards

I am a bit skeptical of this calculation. First I noticed a typo "sheet size in square meters with 30 (for spinnakers take 13)". I am sure they mean "sail area".

Then I question the reduced load for spinnakers. This must depend on the spinnaker use. In our case we often fly an A3 kite nearly close hauled in 15-20 knots of true wind speed. The loads are absolutely comparable to a genoa. Code zero sails will also generate heavy loads.

Finally, a lot of the load is dependent on the "stiffness" of the boat. obviously the "x30" is a rule of thumb they think is sufficient. A heavy boat with a lot of ballast (or form stability) is going to put more load on the halyards, (a performance catamaran, for example, or a maxed out old IOR boat).

I would not trust this calculation.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Running the halyards up is a protective measure for the portion which is bare dyneema. These are "tapered" halyards, meaning that 1/2 of the halyard, the tail, is covered (has rope's the original polyester cover) but the other half (the half with the shackle on it) is bare dyneema. I supposed, from reading, that the dyneema was pretty much impervious to UV. Based on my experience, maybe not.

So I will tie a length of small stuff to the shackle and pull the halyard aloft. This places the bare dyneema inside the mast and out of the reach of the sunlight. The tail, which is covered, is pulled out, and coiled into a bag at the base of the mast. I wanted to avoid the hassle of this but it is quite common on boats with expensive tapered halyards.

Mate, we've got to give you cruising lessons again. If you don't take the covers off, you don't have to run the halyards up into the mast. We have to do that every time we take my Wednesday beer can ride, and it cuts into the drinking time.

I remember my first Big Boat Series, where my boat put on new jib and spinnaker halyards EVERY NIGHT. It was then that I lost interest in racing my own boat at a grand prix level.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Mate, we've got to give you cruising lessons again. If you don't take the covers off, you don't have to run the halyards up into the mast. We have to do that every time we take my Wednesday beer can ride, and it cuts into the drinking time.

I remember my first Big Boat Series, where my boat put on new jib and spinnaker halyards EVERY NIGHT. It was then that I lost interest in racing my own boat at a grand prix level.

Absolutely correct about the inconvenience of running halyards up. I agree, PITA. But we like racing, and we like racing our own boat (which we live aboard too, and cruise a lot). While there is a small fleet here in Puerto Vallarta, it is very competitive. We are serious about doing well and tapered halyards was one thing we could do which improved our performance, however slightly (all together getting rid of the wire aloft saved us about 100 lbs, it was more than just the halyards). We try to make some improvement every season.

I will not back off of our approach nor take on the attitude of, "it's cruising, it doesn't matter if it is a little bit slower". I love my cruising, but I am competitive and I will remains so. Cruising or not, we will continue to pursue speed.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Absolutely correct about the inconvenience of running halyards up. I agree, PITA. But we like racing, and we like racing our own boat (which we live aboard too, and cruise a lot). While there is a small fleet here in Puerto Vallarta, it is very competitive. We are serious about doing well and tapered halyards was one thing we could do which improved our performance, however slightly (all together getting rid of the wire aloft saved us about 100 lbs, it was more than just the halyards). We try to make some improvement every season.

I will not back off of our approach nor take on the attitude of, "it's cruising, it doesn't matter if it is a little bit slower". I love my cruising, but I am competitive and I will remains so. Cruising or not, we will continue to pursue speed.

So you will gybe on the shifts and carry on with full canvas to a new anchorage when your ETA is 0400? I did that once and learned my lesson.

OTOH, I always left large piles on the dock and in the water when I raced my Beneteau First 456. What a huge difference taking a thousand pounds out of the ends makes.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

Okay, blame this one on lockdown boredom, brain freeze, or whatever. A discussion on another forum noted that the consensus for my boat is 3/8" for spinnaker halyards and 1/2" for main and foresail halyards. Right off I don't understand why the difference but it goes on.

And I'm going to have to check when I have access to the boat because I'm not sure that's what I have.

But in any case, this means lines with thousands of pounds breaking strength.

So, as a result of an "oops" moment, I'm going to have to go up the mast to retrieve a spinnaker halyard. I know from experience that this will require help because my wife isn't strong enough to winch me up the mast. But she can raise the main if she has to.

I weigh 145 pounds.

So why do we need a line capable of handling thousands of pounds when I know that we're not putting anything like that tension on it in other circumstances.

I'll repeat the apology because I sense that this is a really stupid question, but it has been a long winter and brain and body are currently in shutdown.

As cordage gets older it gets weaker. By using "overstrong" halyards you're giving yourself years of safe use.

And as you'll find out, replacing a broken halyard can be a PITA.