furling system advice (yes or no)

[hatteras53]

Hello all shipmates !


I REALLY need some good advice on the above. Getting ready to replace all of the standing/running rigging on my 44' nauticat motorsailer which is a schooner with 2 masts about 58' and 63' tall. The total quote is about 23k, which blew the wife and I away ! Boat is currently in Deltaville, Va. I have asked them for a deduction for no forward mast roller furling system and they will re-quote me with a new price. The new price will probably ONLY (ha ha) be around 17 or 18k. Is it a good idea to do away with this furling and save the money ? We mostly motor and use the sails only when there is a good breeze. I am 67 in good health and the wife is 44 and in excellent shape. I was shocked at the prices to say the least. Would even consider moving the boat for a less expensive price. Yes, I know all about Annapolis, Md. but their price would probably be even higher. I have read all about the + and - of furling and it seems nice except if it fails. Our boat has an old forward mast furling system that is broken and obsolete. I REALLY NEED SOME HONEST ADVICE from some fellow sailors who have already made these decisions one way or the other. I am open minded about any and all comments that are helpful. Since I am not all that handy, a do it yourself project won't fly. The yard were I am at will pull the masts and let others help me but they can't be riggers. They have a captive rigger who does all their work. Is 17-19k the going price today for my boat. I AM SO VERY APPRECIATIVE of anyone who can advise me. AND THANK YOU. Michael V. Gutowski 410-913-2330 e mail is forkliftman1952@gmail.com

[Stu Jackson]

Michael,


I have been sailing all my life since I learned to sail as a kid at summer camp. We have owned our own boats since 1983. I am 73.


We sailed our C25 on SF Bay for 13 years without jib furling. I learned how to backwind the jib by heaving to and did a takedown with a downhaul. Our previous C22 didn't have furling either. 1983-87



In 1997 we embarked on what became a year-long search for a C34. We saw a few without furling. Once I became aware of the size of even the 110 jib, I was convinced that a boat this size without furling would be a big mistake. My two jibs are 110 & 85.



Why? Because of the safety issue. That simple.


Of course, one could always argue that IF the furling gear broke for any reason it would be bad news. However, if one learns how their furling system works, then unless the top swivel can't come down because that's where the failure occurred, then in most aspects it is similar to hanked-on jibs: loosen the halyard and pull the sail down.


Using the "what if it breaks? logic IMO is a fallacy in itself. One could apply that to any piece of gear: your engine, your fridge, your lights...endless.


I sailed this boat on SF Bay for 18 years before we moved here in 2016, and sailed, motored actually, up the coast. I don't kid when I say "we're just a trawler with a stick" here, BUT, when I want to sail I easily can. And "sailing" here often is only in hour long periods because of the fickleness of the wind areas within the Gulf Islands. Using a hanked-on jib would almost cause me to buy a motorboat! And my boat sails very well on jib alone. Not so great on just the main, which is a standard one (no furling, no stack pack...)



I understand you have a motorsailor. If you want to ever sail, at all, then the mere thought of having to wrestle a jib on deck, or even to take it out of a foredeck bag, would be more hassle than the reward of being able to sail.


I lust after mainsail furling now.


I also recognize the sticker shock you have expressed. Have you considered additional comparative shopping? I understand the complexity of your rigging, but those numbers seem awfully outrageous.


Good luck.

[Pete7]

Astonishing price, but is this because its June and everyone wants their boat fixed now. What would happen if you asked for the same quote in November when they are scratching around for work? We have always ordered sails in Nov/Dec for this reason.

Pete

[boatman61]

Speaking as someone who is getting on and is not as strong as they once were I would recommend going with the headsail furler..
A couple of years back I delivered a 64ftr with twin headsails, both on furlers, halfway between St Martin and the Azores the U bracket welded on top of the spinner at the head of the genoa broke and I had to manhandle it down and stow it, folding it on the foredeck left me nearly to exhausted to bundle it down below.. and that was in gentle seas and a 12kt breeze.
I'm sorry but I dont care how fit you are, or your wife You are going downhill faster every year and hanking sails and hoisting them, lashing them to the rails in rain is no fun and in a wind even less.. and its likely the burden will fall more and more on the wife. They are big, they are heavy.
What I would suggest is you buy the furling gear and get them to install it when they re rig her..
You should save a bit cutting out their mark up.
Also.. maybe get a second quote for the re rig.
https://jimmygreen.com/profurl/77469...reefing-system

[Tillsbury]

I would never skip on headsail furling on a 44 footer. Perhaps you have a different experience having had a “broken” one so long, but it’s simply a necessity unless you’re a masochist. Get more quotes, but otherwise just stomach it. Can you just do the standing rigging and replace the running over the next season or two?

[JPA Cate]

hatterass53,

Replacing the rig is a bullet we sometimes have to bite. You're getting a good deal, actually. When we were dismasted in 1996, replacing the rig, and all the running rigging, came to $25,000, without the radar, for a 36 foot sloop.

I think Stu Jackson's crystal ball is very clear today, that if you don't replace the furler if it needs it, you will regret it. I would have thought you could replace the wire and re-use the furler?

You mention your good lady wife is 44 yrs. old. Well, most anyone 44 is llikely to be in better shape than someone 67. It is a question of her courage: does she love sailing, would she want to do numerous sail changes on her own? Which of you instigates trips to the boat?

Maybe motor sailor type boats should have the very best sails possible, to give them a better chance to sail, rather than motoring (carbon footprint, expense)?

Sorry the costs quoted came as a shock. Pete's winter assessment is interesting, wonder if that would help in your case?

Ann

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I would never skip on headsail furling on a 44 footer. Perhaps you have a different experience having had a “broken” one so long, but it’s simply a necessity unless you’re a masochist.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks, tills. I forgot: When we bought this boat it had a CDI POS furler. I never use our furler for reefing anyway, and change the jibs based on the season. In any event, the CDI failed and I couldn't get the jib down! Not fun.


In the time it took to raise the $$ for new standing rigging, the sun had damaged the Sunbrella cover of the 110 jib, so when I finally got it down during the re-rig job, I had the loft cut the Sunbrella off and make a smaller headsail. I had purchased another 110 from another C34 who had used it for all of 2 seasons and replaced it with a bigger one for his trip to Mexico from SF.


I, too, bought the furler at a boat show price, and had it in hand for a year or two before I got the whole rigging replaced, so saved some $$ that way.



And the idea that the running rigging be replaced later, if condition allows, does let you spread the pain out.


Good luck.

[hatteras53]

I am EXTREMELY grateful to everyone who has replied to my plea for help. Our boat has had an extensive refit and some of it had to be done a second time because of a dishonest boatyard owner so this additional 23 k really hurts us financially and it is a blow to our misplaced trust. The folks who gave us the 23k price are honest. It's a tough pill to swallow. The revised quote due to us on Monday without the forward mast furling will probably be about 17k. Since our running/standing rigging is TOTALLY gone-period it is decision time. Nothing is operational because of being on the hard for such a long time. We are ashamed of the dishonest boatyard owner. Another customer is suing him for 375 k right now and we are being called as a key witness in his case. Seems as if most all of you are saying yes to the furling system. I just read some horror stories about what can happen if it fails under the wrong set of circumstances. That is why we replaced the Ford Lehman engine with a Cummins non computer old style engine that is simple. Keeping things simple is very important to me. AGREED I am not and never will be Superman. Thank you so much for any other thoughts you might have. You guys are really great and selfless to help me at all. Shipmate Michael

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by hatteras53

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Seems as if most all of you are saying yes to the furling system. I just read some horror stories about what can happen if it fails under the wrong set of circumstances. That is why we replaced the Ford Lehman engine with a Cummins non computer old style engine that is simple. Keeping things simple is very important to me. AGREED I am not and never will be Superman. Thank you so much for any other thoughts you might have. You guys are really great and selfless to help me at all. Shipmate Michael

I think I can speak for the other contributors to your plight that we are pleased to be able to help. Your new input reinforces the views you've requested.

I agree on the KISS. I'm usually the last S in that, too.

It appears that you are now where I was in 1998 to 2003, yes, that long. We'd bought the boat, it was pristine, a very conscientious PO. But the CDI furler was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.

However, instead of bemoaning furlers because of that, I researched the CDI failures and began an investigation of potential options. Please remember this was pre-big time internet, heck, bulletin boards were new!!! Dating myself? Hardly. This is from the very last person who lived within 30 miles of Silicon Valley who ran Windows 3.1 until the turn of the century!

I learned that the CDI failures were, essentially, commonplace, and why they failed regularly. Basic causes: too light for the service of my size boat - the biggest one they made so the PO hadn't scrimped; but we sailed SF Bay which is windier than their basic selection specs; long story but the inside halyard idea wasn't the best. Just MY experience...

I then investigated "what was left" in the reality of "what's available." I eliminated budget as a constraint for the preliminary look-see, narrowed it down to Harken or ProFurl for how I sailed and what I wanted the furler to do, both could reef, which I never did anyway as noted earlier.

I made my choice (ProFurl LCI32), had it installed and the jib wouldn't come down within a month! Hassled the boatyard to get the independent rigger back, he finally showed up a week late and a dollar short!

He was standing on the bow pulpit, and said, "The a$$hole who installed this didn't use Locktite on the furler extrusion screws."

I figured he should have remembered that HE did the work on this boat, I didn't choose that moment to advise him that HE was that said a$$hole, and hesitated to push him off the pulpit, 'cuz that wouldn't have resolved my issue!



But I sure wanted to...

It's been perfect the last 16 years, flawless. Knock on wood. Watch the hubris, always...

Perhaps now that you're in "crunch time" here, you could choose to apply the choices you now have in available hardware.

Unless you've done that already, but you haven't said, yet, what that $X difference gets ya.

At least that's what I did.

Good luck, and thanks again for coming back and keeping us posted on your progress.

[boatman61]

Surely the running rigging can be done by yourself or does work restrict your available time.
Its easy enough just sew the end of the old line to the new and pull it through.. I imagine labour costs come close to the cost of your new lines.
But then I am a cheapskate who DIY's whenever possible in every department.

[JimsCAL]

One alternative might be to use an online source like riggingonly.com. Send them your old stuff and have them match it.

[Dockhead]

I think the OP is talking about in-mast mainsail furling, not headsail furling. Is that right, Michael?


I wouldn't be without the headsail furling, but if you don't sail much, you can take or leave the in-mast furling. For your use case in-mast furling has some advantages -- perfect storage of the sail inside the mast, no faffing around on the boom trying to the sail tied and covered, after sailing. But if you don't sail much anyway, then that might not be worth the money. Only you can decide.

[hatteras53]

To one and all.....THANK YOU. The wife and I are not that handy and the boat is 4 hours away. The roller furling is for the front mast. We are a 2 mast schooner. It seems as if most of you are advising us to go for the extra 4-5k and do the furling. EVERYTHING about the rigging is SHOT. 23k was such a sticker shock to us. That's why we thought about saving money on the furling. Think most of you feel that 23k is not highway robbery ?/!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by hatteras53

Hello all shipmates !


I REALLY need some good advice on the above. Getting ready to replace all of the standing/running rigging on my 44' nauticat motorsailer which is a schooner with 2 masts about 58' and 63' tall. The total quote is about 23k, which blew the wife and I away ! Boat is currently in Deltaville, Va. I have asked them for a deduction for no forward mast roller furling system and they will re-quote me with a new price. The new price will probably ONLY (ha ha) be around 17 or 18k. Is it a good idea to do away with this furling and save the money ? We mostly motor and use the sails only when there is a good breeze. I am 67 in good health and the wife is 44 and in excellent shape. I was shocked at the prices to say the least. Would even consider moving the boat for a less expensive price. Yes, I know all about Annapolis, Md. but their price would probably be even higher. I have read all about the + and - of furling and it seems nice except if it fails. Our boat has an old forward mast furling system that is broken and obsolete. I REALLY NEED SOME HONEST ADVICE from some fellow sailors who have already made these decisions one way or the other. I am open minded about any and all comments that are helpful. Since I am not all that handy, a do it yourself project won't fly. The yard were I am at will pull the masts and let others help me but they can't be riggers. They have a captive rigger who does all their work. Is 17-19k the going price today for my boat. I AM SO VERY APPRECIATIVE of anyone who can advise me. AND THANK YOU. Michael V. Gutowski 410-913-2330 e mail is forkliftman1952@gmail.com

There are two considerations here, your own use of the vessel and the resale value.

Since you only use your sails when conditions are perfect you could get by with hanks and forego the furler. Either you or your wife could easily pull down a moderate sized hanked on headsail, which can be lashed to the lifelines until you are back in port or otherwise ready to bag it. We have a long bungie cord threaded through stanchion bases with hooks on it which we pull around the sail. This is not a hard job, but yes, it requires foredeck work, after all this is sailing.

On the other hand, you reduce the resale value of the boat without a foresail furler. In that boat you have a substantial asset and only by continuously maintaining and upgrading it will you protect the value of that asset.

[boatman61]

If its an in mast furler would that not mean a new mast or at least modifications to allow for raising a main with slides..
Or is it a bolt on external furler..