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Old 11-07-2020, 19:05   #61
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

I'd forget about going with rod rigging....I had rod rigging on a previous boat. When rod rigging fails, it gives no notice. Rod rigging is also quite stiff and cumbersome, and will not package well for delivery, if you can even find it.

Stainless steel wire for a sailboat is almost always type 316. 316 is not the strongest s/s, but is the most corrosion resistant. You can get the type 316 where it is " rolled", ie, the outer strands are flattened to give the wire a "smoother" look, but why bother.

Much simpler to just upsize your forestay incrementally in diameter for a little extra " safety factor". The difference in price between one diameter and the next size up is typically not that much.

Wire rigging is usually designed with a bit of safety factor, but that photo gives me the shivers.
If you can order a length of wire from somewhere, they can usually fit a swaged fitting on one end. Order it a couple of feet longer than you need, than you can cut the wire and fit your own stalok fitting on the bottom exactly where you want it. Don't forget to open and lengthen the turnbuckle, prior to cutting the wire. The swaged fitting end goes back to the top of the mast.

Fitting a stalok fitting is relatively simple, The fitting will come with instructions. Just follow the instructions.
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Old 11-07-2020, 19:14   #62
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

didn't notice you already got it fixed....I'm always late to a party...
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Old 11-07-2020, 23:27   #63
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Originally Posted by chrisr View Post
interesting...

what is the plan if you need to drop the headsail in a hurry ? eg cannot furl in too much breeze ?

cheers,

Well, that would be a problem.

What situation have you experienced where you had to drop a furling sail that wouldn’t furl?
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Old 11-07-2020, 23:40   #64
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Well, that would be a problem.

What situation have you experienced where you had to drop a furling sail that wouldn’t furl?
while ago we had our top swivel seize. naturally it was 2am & 30+

only saviour was drop the sail pronto

suppose you could get similar problem with a riding hitch on the furling drum (although not experienced this myself)

cheers,
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:59   #65
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Motor around in circles for a while??
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Old 22-07-2020, 08:00   #66
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Had a similar finding last (NZ) summer, when we had to drop the foresail in order to remove/repair/replace the Reef-Rite furler. The fore halyard was rope to wire and the wire had three or four broken strands where it went over the sheave. We sailed for the next few weeks, although not in what you would call heavy air, and since then the boat hasn't got a lot of use -- we're back in Canada and the COVID pause, combined with increasingly wintry weather, has meant the rest of the family didn't get out much either.

But Doyle's replaced the wire with Dyneema a week or so back and we are good to go.

Now we just have to hope the borders re-open in January and the airlines have flights that don't require one to be a plutocrat to fly. I really don't want to watch the Americas Cup on TV.

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Old 31-07-2020, 15:20   #67
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Originally Posted by Connemara View Post
Had a similar finding last (NZ) summer, when we had to drop the foresail in order to remove/repair/replace the Reef-Rite furler. The fore halyard was rope to wire and the wire had three or four broken strands where it went over the sheave. We sailed for the next few weeks, although not in what you would call heavy air, and since then the boat hasn't got a lot of use -- we're back in Canada and the COVID pause, combined with increasingly wintry weather, has meant the rest of the family didn't get out much either.



But Doyle's replaced the wire with Dyneema a week or so back and we are good to go.



Now we just have to hope the borders re-open in January and the airlines have flights that don't require one to be a plutocrat to fly. I really don't want to watch the Americas Cup on TV.



Connemara

To be clear, it was our forestay, not our halyard, that had broken strands.

The NZ border is not, unless we have an unlikely change of government in September, opening until there is a vaccine. If you’re not a citizen or permanent resident, or are not able to qualify as essential worker, you are not able to arrive. No exemptions have been announced so far for the America’s Cup. Heck, even the challengers have been having trouble getting their teams into NZ. TV it will be unfortunately.
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Old 01-08-2020, 07:54   #68
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

I fear you are correct about re-opening.


That said, there is a technology that could allow freer travel. A couple of pharma firms have reliable 15-minute diagnostic tests that have been approved, including one that is portable.

You can imagine a scenario where potential travelers take the test before boarding. If negative all good. If not, no flying for you.

They then take the test again on disembarking. If still negative all good; if not, 14 days of quarantine.

On the other hand, that might be too rational.
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Old 01-08-2020, 08:09   #69
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Originally Posted by Connemara View Post
...hope the borders (NZ) re-open in January...

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Old 01-08-2020, 10:18   #70
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

1. No, it is not safe anymore.


2. halyard wrap most likely cause,


3. no toggle at the top the second most likely cause.


b.
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Old 01-08-2020, 20:11   #71
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
1. No, it is not safe anymore.


2. halyard wrap most likely cause,


3. no toggle at the top the second most likely cause.


b.

To ensure the record is kept straight for anyone else with this kind of rigging failure:

1. Sort of correct. Several riggers said the headsail luff and halyard do carry at least some of the forestay load and would likely hold the mast up in relatively light conditions. While the forestay was fine prior to our last passage from Tonga to New Zealand it may have started failing during that passage. 40+ knots and very steep and breaking seas and it obviously held together, and for the subsequent 4 months of coastal sailing.

2. No, halyard wrap not possible and didn’t take place.

3. No, there was a fully articulating toggle at the top that had free movement in both planes of motion.

Probable cause was the additional movement of the loosened forestay (looser rig) caused by partial opening of the turnbuckle at the bottom of the stay. The rigger who took it all apart figures about 40mm of extra length. We had progressively tightened the shrouds when conditions allowed but not that much.

And it was nearly 10 years old. I suppose insurance companies didn’t just pick a number out of the blue for covering/not covering rigging failure.

For that matter, how long do you think the Dyneema DUX shrouds should last? We’ve put Dyneema cover on them to protect from chafe and once we get some marks on that we’ll put an additional layer at the battens.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:30   #72
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
To ensure the record is kept straight for anyone else with this kind of rigging failure:

1. Sort of correct. Several riggers said the headsail luff and halyard do carry at least some of the forestay load and would likely hold the mast up in relatively light conditions. While the forestay was fine prior to our last passage from Tonga to New Zealand it may have started failing during that passage. 40+ knots and very steep and breaking seas and it obviously held together, and for the subsequent 4 months of coastal sailing.

2. No, halyard wrap not possible and didn’t take place.

3. No, there was a fully articulating toggle at the top that had free movement in both planes of motion.

Probable cause was the additional movement of the loosened forestay (looser rig) caused by partial opening of the turnbuckle at the bottom of the stay. The rigger who took it all apart figures about 40mm of extra length. We had progressively tightened the shrouds when conditions allowed but not that much.

And it was nearly 10 years old. I suppose insurance companies didn’t just pick a number out of the blue for covering/not covering rigging failure.

For that matter, how long do you think the Dyneema DUX shrouds should last? We’ve put Dyneema cover on them to protect from chafe and once we get some marks on that we’ll put an additional layer at the battens.

Too bad I do not have any input on Dyneema DUX expected life. I only see these on the Mini class boats and sometimes on the few racers w get here, maybe one maxi or two a year (these still have mostly rod) and ocassionally some modern and expensive cat.


I have never sen a broken Dyneema wire yet. I also know that many IMOCA keep their rigging over more than one VG event. Hence I would get there is more life in DUX than in SS. But it is only a guess.



Perhaps some insight could be had from browsing load cycle data for the material and comparing to SS.



BTW the 10 years urban legend (to which I adhere too) - it was not by insurance companies. I have also failed to notice this point with the their big names - e.g. the Pantenius.


It was actually a Navtec study that was based in their commercial interest (they profited from early replacement). There is also a good amount of general structural study from architecture industry. This Navtec study is still available online.



So now I take it - there was free play, or just not enough tension, and the wire got killed.


This is also what I heard before from riggers in Auck, NZ - keep your SS wires tight - as on-off load cycles shorten the life of the wire. We replaced our tops there and the rigger advocated more tension than we used to have in the old rigging.



I am super happy you found time to respond as moments like this are where we get the most useful learning.


If you find some interesting data on DUX expected life, pls share. I will be interested to know this too.



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Old 02-08-2020, 14:17   #73
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
...

BTW the 10 years urban legend (to which I adhere too) - it was not by insurance companies. I have also failed to notice this point with the their big names - e.g. the Pantenius.


It was actually a Navtec study that was based in their commercial interest (they profited from early replacement). There is also a good amount of general structural study from architecture industry. This Navtec study is still available online.
We’re insured via Velos, a UK insurer underwritten by Lloyd’s and they have always stated in our policies that standing rigging is not covered if over 10 years old. Having worked for insurance companies in the past they are very careful with their language and for sure an underwriting analyst has determined that ten years is important and not just cribbed from some study. But that’s only one insurance company, so you may be right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
...

If you find some interesting data on DUX expected life, pls share. I will be interested to know this too.

b.

I’ve spoken to a number of riggers in Auckland and Whangarei and Colligo. Their answers range from 5-8 years to 10-15 years to shrugs and don’t know. Racers often change their rigging (and sails for that matter) between events and even RTW racing doesn’t tell us much as the time is relatively short. There must be cruising boats that have had fibre rigs installed over ten years ago but I haven’t heard anything about that. I assume that it’s UV and chafe that are the enemies, not strength nor cycles.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:21   #74
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post


(...)



I assume that it’s UV and chafe that are the enemies, not strength nor cycles.

Both can be reduced by applying coatings. And these can be re-applied over time. Think of old school soft wire or soft line rigging - then there were tar and similar products, today there are things you can apply to synthetics both in-production as well as on inspection.


Testing is done by applying millions of cycles on special testing machines and also with exposure to special UV lamps on a test bed, then testing again on the stress bench. So I am 100% certain somebody knows the answers already.


The only surprise will be if something that has not been tested 'pops-up' the weasel style and we get to see damage in a way that had never been expected.


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