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Old 09-03-2020, 01:40   #46
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Never heard of the magic temperature band. Micro cycles yes though - always keep a tight sheet on the furled jib.

Forestay/furler decision made and deposits paid. We shall install a structural furler instead of a forestay and separate furler. This means our jib will not be reefable, so we need to install an inner removable forestay and a furling staysail (also not reefable) to split the difference of our jib reefs 1 (70%) and 2 (50%). An over-the-furl storm jib will take care of reef 3 (20%). Finally, efficient sail shapes throughout the jib range.

The structural furler will be Colligo’s ELHF, in a custom size with a 19mm Dyneema torque rope. We’ll add soft hanks to the current jib.
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Old 09-03-2020, 10:58   #47
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Hank on and other non furling jibs can reefed. Essentially cringles are installed to do a slab reef like the main. Haven't used such a system other than to try it out in the slip though had it on my staysail.. Seemed to work out fine greatly reducing area quickly and easier than a full sail change. Wished I had it on the Yankee as doing away with the slot between the staysail and yankee, when wind conditions forced me to drop the yankee, cost a knot of boat speed


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Never heard of the magic temperature band. Micro cycles yes though - always keep a tight sheet on the furled jib.

Forestay/furler decision made and deposits paid. We shall install a structural furler instead of a forestay and separate furler. This means our jib will not be reefable, so we need to install an inner removable forestay and a furling staysail (also not reefable) to split the difference of our jib reefs 1 (70%) and 2 (50%). An over-the-furl storm jib will take care of reef 3 (20%). Finally, efficient sail shapes throughout the jib range.

The structural furler will be Colligo’s ELHF, in a custom size with a 19mm Dyneema torque rope. We’ll add soft hanks to the current jib.
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Old 09-03-2020, 11:12   #48
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

I got a reefable hank on jib. Really helps out with my options. But I have a pretty well built jib so it can handle it. (Hear that jib? Ya gotta handle it) It’s a bit of a hassle to do it when it’s windy and you need it, but better than not having it.
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Old 09-03-2020, 15:37   #49
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Reefable jib is an interesting idea and I might do that to my current jib to see how it works. Not as easy as furl it up and deploy the staysail though. But worth trying.

When we eventually get a new jib we will get it designed for maximum 30 knots (AWS), rather than the current up to 50 knots when partially furled. That should make it lighter and better performing through its range.

The staysail will be built for 25-40 knots. I really want an inner forestay to hoist a storm jib especially, but even for beating in 30 knots to bring the centre of effort back a bit. Currently we have a fair bit of lee helm in stronger winds as the furled jib COE goes forward faster than that of the (big roach) reefed main. The lee helm is exacerbated by lifting the daggerboards more as the speed (wind and boat) gets faster, which moves the COLR aft.
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Old 09-03-2020, 20:12   #50
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

I think there is psychology to be used here I had a Storm / hove to/ the last bagto use Jib made by an old friend IN BRIGHT RED CLOTH He claimed it frightened the wicked Wind and helped you to win the Tussle.. I think it did on the occasions when I stuck my head and shoulders out of the companionway into the grey and black and foamy white world I felt bigger and invincible. Even Cheerful! Mike Pope
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Old 10-03-2020, 04:57   #51
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

You going to Musket Cove Regatta week? Sounds like unusual choices there for your headsail arrangement on a cruising cat. You actually have been using your current furling sail in 50 knots? That amount of headstay sag, coupled with your runner shackle problems would be what are up that headstay. Most cats seem to run a much lower inner stay more like a babystay to fly a storm jib or small staysail.

Would be interested to see your boat at some point and discuss how this worked out.

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Old 10-03-2020, 13:56   #52
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
You going to Musket Cove Regatta week? Sounds like unusual choices there for your headsail arrangement on a cruising cat. You actually have been using your current furling sail in 50 knots? That amount of headstay sag, coupled with your runner shackle problems would be what are up that headstay. Most cats seem to run a much lower inner stay more like a babystay to fly a storm jib or small staysail.

Would be interested to see your boat at some point and discuss how this worked out.

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We’re in NZ for the next year, so if you’re down this way you’re welcome to come by and visit and have a sail with us.

Regarding head stay and storm sails, unfortunately Outremer designed and built the first generation (and possibly the current generation too) without a structural longitudinal beam between the main beam and the front cross beam. So no easy way of creating an inner forestay tack. Nor a self supporting bow pole, but that’s a separate issue.

Similarly, the mast on our boat has two sets of three-arm spreaders and 3 diamond stays each (sides and forward). This prevents the use of a lower inner stay location. But why would you want that anyway - the shrouds and running backstays support the hounds, so it makes sense to place the inner forestay head as close as possible to the forestay to benefit from that support. Also enables a higher aspect ratio sail, which is useful in storm sails as well as staysails.

The reefing plan indicates using 20% jib (about the area of a small storm jib for our boat) in up to 50 knots, but we haven’t seen more than 40 knots steady.At 40 knots AWS between 50% and 20% jib and three reefs in the main are just about right to keep us scooting along upwind without over powering us. A staysail with a nice shape would be much nicer in those conditions as a jib furled that much is pretty baggy. Above that we’d want a proper storm jib anyway.

The broken strands problem was likely due to the increased looseness of the rig because the forestay turnbuckle had loosened itself (and wasn’t noticed due to the furler’s turnbuckle cover - add removing that and inspecting the turnbuckle if you have one there to your inspection checklist!). Better is to not have a turnbuckle there.
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Old 15-03-2020, 01:14   #53
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

You seemtohave decided on theprudent pathof replacing the entire rig asap...good...at the risk of stating the obvious - if one wire looks like that, you can guarantee at least a few of the others are ready to let go - seem to be rather too many contributors recommending various Mickey mouse jury rigs for that one forestay - THATS not the problem, it's all the other wires that don't have visible damage you need to worry about. Good luck.
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Old 29-05-2020, 03:03   #54
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

Our ProFurl furler had a number of damaged parts that are no longer available, so along with replacing our damaged 1x19 wire forestay we also had to replace the furling system. Given the clean slate, we thought about some of the performance attributes that our current system was missing, chief among them being that the 50% or 80% furled sail shape is pretty awful. As our boat has an aggressive reefing plan (she doesn’t need a lot of sail area to sail well), it means that we’re sailing with a partially furled jib from about 20 knots TWS.

We decided on installing a structural furler (no separate forestay - the furling cable is the forestay) for our jib. A structural furler means that the sail cannot be reefed - fully furled or fully set only. When the wind is too strong for the full jib we will need to furl it away and use a staysail, basically equivalent to about 60% of the jib area. That will be part two of the installation.

Structural furlers are common on all classes of single, short and fully crewed round the world race boats and becoming more common for super yachts. They also can make sense for performance oriented cruising boats. One major drawback for cruising is the fact that the sail cannot be lowered with a halyard - someone must go up the mast to release the head lashings

We have completed installation of our new structural furler and serviced jib, finally after 7 weeks of lockdown and a couple of working weeks following the lockdowns. Thanks to:

James at KZ Racefurlers for providing a 10 ton single line furler and top swivel along with customised top and bottom fittings http://www.kzracefurlers.com/single-line-range.html, top swivel Click image for larger version

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Nick at Doyle Rigging NZ for providing a custom Stratis furling cable spliced with end terminals provided by KZ Racefurlers https://www.doylesails.com/ Click image for larger version

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and Matt at North Sails Auckland for converting our jib’s luff groove and foam roller padding luff to soft hanks and no furling structure http://www.nz.northsails.com/.

The system was designed for the same loads as the 1x19 stainless steel wire forestay and 22mm pins that it replaces.

Installation took place today after we collected the cable from Doyles and furler components from KZ Racefurlers in the previous few days. Plus a special shoutout to Matt from North Sails for delivering the serviced jib and helping me with the installation, including two manual hoists of my post-lockdown increased mass to the top of the mast and two trips to local shops for panicked supplies (who knew, tiny little M4 x 6mm grub screws with Allen key heads are available at engineering supply stores).

Mounted the (as it turns out, not labelled!!) tack cable terminal to the upper swivel fitting. Found out only once it was hoisted up the mast to me and Matt notice the ‘head’ label on the terminal at the other end of the cable. Thanks Matt for the quick terminal swap while my legs went to sleep in my harness (lesson learned, loosen the leg straps). The terminals are identical, but the cable has a top and bottom.

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Wow, the top fitting was a tight fit in the mast tangs, almost too much material above the pin hole so that it barely fit. A whole bunch of mallet hits got the pin through, just. Definitely need some space washers on either side of the tangs as the pin extends several mm out either side.

Top and bottom fittings are connected and the rig tensioned - phew, the existing turnbuckles only changed by about 10mm. Then we lashed all the soft hanks and hoisted the sail. A good hint by Matt to use a short loop of small line to attach the halyard, to make it easier to remove the halyard after tying the lashings.

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Notice the SS mast tang that we’ll use for the staysail. I think we can use the jib halyard for the staysail as it’s not needed for the jib and the lead even without a fairlead is pretty good.

The 2:1 halyard is for our screecher, that I had up from our sail a couple weeks ago and was supporting the mast during the installation. Taking that sail down now. Matt will attest, it’s a beast of a big and heavy sail as it is tri radial Dacron and huge overlap.

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The tack is similarly lashed to the furling drum. Tensioning the luff is done with the bottom lashing - gotta love uncovered Dyneema line on slippery fittings.

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Wonderful to have a head stay and jib back on the boat! Thanks all!!

We reused our existing jib as it has a few more years of life left. When we replace it we can add about 70cm to the hoist as the structural furler fittings are much more compact than the traditional furlers.

Our whole system now weighs 14kg, vs around 60kg for the previous system with wire forestay, aluminium foil, and bulkier fittings. Cost of our system was about 110% of what it would have cost to replace what we had. Of course, we have to spend another 80% on a new staysail and furler fittings to basically replicate the furling jib we had before. So pretty much double in price by the time we’re done. We think the improved sailing performance is worth it.
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Old 29-05-2020, 09:02   #55
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

So is that to be employed for wind speeds up to 20 kts only? Then after that staysail?
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Old 29-05-2020, 14:07   #56
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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So is that to be employed for wind speeds up to 20 kts only? Then after that staysail?

Our reefing guide for the jib shows 100% of the jib to 27 knots apparent wind speed. Upwind that means 20-22 knots true wind speed.

So from about 22-25 knots of apparent wind speed we will consider the possibility of building winds and rig the staysail for use. Offshore passages, with infrequent tacks, we will rig the staysail from the outset.

Our reefing guide shows 70%-50% of the jib from 25 knots apparent to 37 knots apparent. The new, purpose-built staysail will be about 60% of the sail area. With high-aspect ratio, flat cut, and low stretch we should be able to sail up to 40 knots apparent wind speed, so about 35 knots true. And down to 18-20 knots true.

More wind then that and we’ll set a storm jib over the furled staysail, or just the main alone (as our mast is relatively far forward and that’s the recommended rig for 50+ knots).

The storm jib will be 20% of our jib area, so around 8sqm.

So three sails instead of 1, but infinitely better sailing throughout the range. And we need a fourth sail, the screecher, for below 7 knots true wind speed upwind. But the 80% of the time sail will be the jib.
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Old 03-06-2020, 13:47   #57
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

With the staysail tang fitting up so high, I assume your rig is more of a solent rig over cutter? Nice work though and something I may look into for future reference for my boat
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Old 03-06-2020, 17:34   #58
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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With the staysail tang fitting up so high, I assume your rig is more of a solent rig over cutter? Nice work though and something I may look into for future reference for my boat

I suppose that’s correct. The boat is French and the self tacking jib on the primary (structural) forestay is labelled “Solent” on the sail plan, in the boat manual, on the reefing plan, on the halyard clutch label, and on the sail bag label. A cutter usually has a lower forestay attachment, but still much higher than a baby stay or similar.

I’m not sure how the inner forestay was originally expected to be used as the design does not have any structural fittings aft of the front beam.

We’re adding a through-deck fitting from Ropeye about 250mm aft of the front beam (enough to clear the jib furler and the furled jib). A Dyneema strop from the underside of the front beam will poke a spliced eye up through the deck fitting, to which the 4:1 tack tensioning tackle will be fitted. The final part will go aft to a clutch and be tensioned by a mast winch.
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Old 11-07-2020, 16:44   #59
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

As our jib doesn’t need a halyard (just for hoisting and lowering - the head and tack lashings take the load when the sail is hoisted in position) we’ve decided to repurpose it to use as our staysail halyard. It will be 2:1 to give us decent luff tension and we’ve replaced the clutch with a higher load version to take the higher sailing loads.

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Jib halyard is the red one. One end is tied off at the tang, loop goes down to the sheave on the top swivel, then up and around the existing jib sheave at the hounds.

There’s enough separation that neither leg of the jib halyard should interfere with the jib furling. First test will be when we put the mast back on, hoist and lash the jib, then furl it.

The other line you can see is the 2:1 gennaker halyard.

We’ve moved our spinnaker halyard to the masthead so it cleans up the hounds.
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Old 11-07-2020, 18:26   #60
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Re: Forestay has 7 broken strands!

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
As our jib doesn’t need a halyard (just for hoisting and lowering - the head and tack lashings take the load when the sail is hoisted in position) we’ve decided to repurpose it to use as our staysail halyard. It will be 2:1 to give us decent luff tension and we’ve replaced the clutch with a higher load version to take the higher sailing loads.

Attachment 219159

Jib halyard is the red one. One end is tied off at the tang, loop goes down to the sheave on the top swivel, then up and around the existing jib sheave at the hounds.

There’s enough separation that neither leg of the jib halyard should interfere with the jib furling. First test will be when we put the mast back on, hoist and lash the jib, then furl it.

The other line you can see is the 2:1 gennaker halyard.

We’ve moved our spinnaker halyard to the masthead so it cleans up the hounds.
interesting...

what is the plan if you need to drop the headsail in a hurry ? eg cannot furl in too much breeze ?

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